Sustainable Packaging Goals with Renée Paris

June 15, 2021

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Originally from Augusta, GA, Renée Paris has lived and worked in several diverse locations, including France, Spain, Washington, DC, and West Africa. Renée has a bachelor’s from the George Washington University and an International MBA from the University of South Carolina. Renée served as a Peace Corps Volunteer, where she met her husband. Renée has worked in packaging, with a focus on sustainable packaging, for the last seven years. After several years at a packaging company, Renée took a job with Molson Coors and lives with her husband and daughter in Milwaukee, WI.

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John: Welcome to another edition of the Impact podcast. This is a very special edition ’cause we have today with us, Renée Paris. She’s the category manager for sustainable packaging for Molson Coors. Welcome to the Impact podcast, Renée.

Renée Paris: Thanks, John. It’s great to be here.

John: Renée, this is both, we didn’t plan it this way, but we happen to be taping this episode, I’m in Fresno, you’re in Milwaukee, Wisconsin, but it’s also National Beer Day. We’re actually taping this broadcast on National Beer Day.

Renée: Yeah. So, I encourage everyone to raise a glass of any Molson Coors products as often as you’d like to but especially while listening today.

John: That’s wonderful. And I want to give special cheers to you, Renée, and all your great colleagues from Molson Coors because today, you also announced the first organic beer you released today.

Renée: That’s right. It’s another great addition to our growing portfolio. It’s a really exciting time to be a part of Molson Coors. We’ve got a new hard seltzer is coming out, new flavors, we’ve got the organic beer, we’ve got non-alcoholic beers, non-alcoholic drinks, I should say. There’s something for everybody, and it’s a really neat time to be part of the company.

John: Renée, before we get talking about all the important work you’re doing at Molson Coors in sustainable packaging, can you tell us a little bit about the Renée Paris background – how you even got here. What was your background? Where’d you grow up? Where did you get educated? How do you even get into the whole world of sustainability?

Renée: Sure. I don’t know that there’s a typical path to a sustainable packaging career, because it’s such a new frontier to be involved in, but I probably have one of the least, sort of, straight and narrow paths, if you will, there’s not even that many straight and narrow paths to get here. But I have an undergraduate degree in International Affairs. In my International Affairs undergrad program, I took a course on Developmental Economics and learned a lot about microfinance and essentially harnessing the power of business for good, for doing something good. That was really my calling. It resonated with me on an almost spiritual level, if you will. I knew I wanted to work in business, and I wanted to work in business internationally, but I wanted to do something that was going to better the lives of others. So, I worked in microfinance and social services for quite some time and really went back and forth between getting a Master’s of Public Administration and a Master’s of Business Administration. I finally found a program not far from where I grew up at the University of South Carolina that enabled me to do an International Master’s of Business Administration and do the Peace Corps at the same time. So, rather than doing a traditional internship, I spent two years in West Africa. So, it really kind of harmonize all of the things that were really important to me, such as the international aspect and using business to do good. I was a small business volunteer and worked with cocoa and coffee farmers, and that’s where I really got into the supply chain aspect of things. You really realize that the people who work the hardest for our morning coffee and our chocolate bars are the people that get the least amount of value from what you pay for it, right?

John: Uh-huh.

Renée: So, you’re really starting to understand. This is almost ten years ago now when I left for Africa, so companies were just sort of getting to the point where they realize how much slavery was in their supply chains, especially in cocoa and coffee, child labor, destruction of natural habitats. So, people were really starting to understand the importance of getting some sort of certification. I helped a cocoa and coffee cooperative get fair trade certified so they could get access to better pricing and just a better sort of situation for them. I came back. I married a Cameroonian. I came back with a real passion for trying to figure out how to use business to make the world a better place. My first job after my MBA program was for Sonoco products which is a packaging company. Sonoco makes packaging you use every day even if you’ve never heard of the company. Things like Pringles cans and Planters cans and Oreo packaging and berry packaging for the plastic thermal forms you get, that do you have strawberries in or blueberries. I started off at Sunoco working on the supplier sustainability team and then also in a procurement function and then sort of was able to spend more and more time working on the sustainability aspect of it, of packaging and just understanding how far down the supply chain can you go, how much can you control what you’re purchasing.

I had a conference that I attended where there was a chief procurement officer, I think from Fiat Chrysler, who said that he had gone to his procurement team and they were talking about the factory collapse in Bangladesh that had killed, I think, 1,100 people or something and they all agreed that it was bad, and he said, “Now, how many of you can guarantee me that we have never spent a penny there. Either our suppliers’ suppliers’ suppliers’ suppliers,” and you can’t. I mean, no one can say, “I know for a fact that the uniforms that our fourth-tier supplier used didn’t come from that factory.” You can’t, it’s just very hard the further down you get and so I got really to, again, this whole idea that these companies spend billions and billions of dollars every year buying products to convert into packaging or what have you and you can either do a lot of good or a lot of harm with that money. And so I ended up working full-time in a packaging sustainability role which led to my job here at Molson Coors. So it’s kind of a strange background but it’s always been rooted in trying to get for-profits to do the right thing, trying to help people, and, yeah, it’s something that I’m very passionate about.

People are increasingly aware of the effect that we as humans are having on the planet, especially the younger generations and so people – it’s used to be, you do sustainability for the fluff and whatever and now it’s a gatekeeper, everyone is expecting you to have, I mean, I’m not that old, right? And I can remember when I think Kmart was the first one that had a lot of trouble with slavery in their supply chain. And people are like, “Oh, well, what are you going to do?” And then a lot of brands went through it, and I think that we have run out of, sort of, and rightfully so, of goodwill with consumers and they’re now expecting us to have a slavery-free supply chain, to have products that are recyclable, to be good stewards of the world, to try to get to carbon-neutral, those are all now just baseline expectations that consumers have.

John: Well, really, when I was your age, ESG wasn’t a thing, Renée, and now it’s a thing that’s here to stay, an important thing like you said, it’s a gatekeeper issue. And your generation and younger and your daughter’s generation or my granddaughter’s generation, this is going to be part of our culture and DNA now, as we go forward, which thank God it is. And thank God your generation is taking the torch, is now running with this because there were no roles. First of all, when I got in doing with the business that I’m doing, when I even started this podcast 13 or 14 years ago, there was no such thing as a chief sustainability officer. And now, colleges and universities are teaching whole courses and whole suites of courses on sustainability and creating the next generation of Renée Parises and chief sustainability officers and sustainability managers, so I think it’s just a wonderful wonderful wave that’s come across us. I think other countries are way ahead of us. I think Europe was way ahead of us. I think great parts of Asia are way out of us. And I think America now is really on to this and really going to make a big move and thank gosh. Thank gosh for the work you’re doing.

For our listeners and viewers who just joined us, we’ve got Renée Paris. She’s the Category Manager of Sustainable Packaging at Molson Coors. You can find Molson Coors at, you click on the sustainability page, it is just a wonderful suite of information in terms of their imprint report from 2020, their ESG report from 2020, and so many other great pieces of information. I really highly advise and I’m on their site right now, it’s great. And today, the day that I’m taping this episode with Renée while she’s in Milwaukee and I’m in Fresno, California, it’s actually National Beer day and Molson Coors has rolled out today their first organic beer. So, three cheers to Molson Coors today.

Renée, let’s talk about sustainable packaging, it is an important issue. Packaging is all around us, both, of course, in the beer industry, but in everything we touch and all the consumer goods, talk about common misconceptions in the sustainable packaging world and things that we should disavow ourselves of that the media doesn’t cover.

Renée: Sure. So, I think that sustainable packaging can mean a lot of different things and if there’s someone who claims to have the definition, the ultimate definition of sustainable packaging, they’re either a genius or a liar. So for a lot of people, especially these days, plastic has got a big black eye and not unrightfully so, right? There’s been a lot of backlash against plastic, single-use plastics in particular. And so essentially, if I can just back up a little bit, a lot of events happen independently of one another a couple of years ago that really sort of started to bring people’s attention, particularly to plastic. The first, well actually I’m not sure, I can’t remember what was first. So the first one that I’m remembering is the Chinese national sword issue, which I think was 2018 or 2019.

John: Right. The green sword. The green sword.

Renée: Right. Well, it’s a national sword, green, yeah, there’s a couple of different names.

John: Got it.

Renée: So essentially what happened was we have these big material recovery facilities which are where you’re recycling that you put on your curbside gets taken to in order to get sort out – this is aluminum, this is this type of plastic, this is steel, this is paper so that it can go to the right bales and get sold into the market. Those are called MRFs, Material Recovery Facilities. So, the number one plastic is PET, which is like your typical water bottle, Coke bottle, Pepsi bottle, whatever you want to call it. And then number two is HDPE, which is like a milk jug, some of your laundry detergent containers, things of that nature, and I conceptualize it. Three through sevens are basically everything else. Well, number four is LDPE like a grocery bag, number five is polypropylene which is like a yogurt cup usually, six is polystyrene which is styrofoam, what we call styrofoam was actually expanded polystyrene and then seven is everything else. So, essentially, the ones and twos have a market in the United States, and what we were doing is taking the threes through sevens and shipping them over to China. So some smart person realized that we had all of these cargo ships coming to the United States full of Asian goods that we were purchasing and then going back largely empty. So I realized that even if you get five bucks for however much plastic, that’s still five bucks that were already going back empty.

And so, in theory, that sounds good if the plastic is being actually recycled and it’s already going on a trip that was already taking place. But what happened was, the plastic we were sending over there was usually pretty highly contaminated, really dirty, not sorted very well. And as you can imagine, it didn’t make for a good market situation with China and other Southeast Asian developing economies. And so China finally said, “You guys, we’re not taking any more of this dirty, unsorted, contaminated plastic. We’re closing our borders.” And they closed their borders for, not only plastic but for papers and for some other materials, and so all of a sudden, these material recovery facilities that had been counting on these Asian markets because after China, then they had the Basel Agreement, which covers some other Asian countries and essentially, they were all just closed off very quickly. So, we had all of this plastic now that was getting sold overseas, and “being recycled”, it’s not happening. So the MRFs, the material recovery facilities, lost this huge income because you know, five bucks is five bucks and if you got a lot, that’s a lot of money. And so it sent the value of a lot of plastics and papers way down because now there’s a glut in the market so Econ 101 situation, right? And that really negatively affected severely these material recovery facilities.

At the same time, National Geographic came out with a series called Planet or Plastic where they had this really ingenious picture where it was an iceberg jutting out of the ocean but instead of an iceberg, it was a plastic bag. And so, it looked just like an iceberg until you looked under the water and then it’s a plastic bag and so it brought a lot of attention to the plastic issue that is happening because what was happening a lot of times in these Asian countries and if you look, I think it’s something like 80 or 90% of plastic in the ocean comes from ten rivers, none of which are in North America. So these companies were buying this material and then if it wasn’t good, it was ended up improperly disposed of, going in these rivers that then feed out to the ocean, right? So people were starting to get very aware of this problem. People are going out on yachts. Ellen MacArthur started the new plastics economy, the Ellen MacArthur Foundation to get companies on board to sign up for these commitments to get out of plastic.

This is a really long answer to your question but there’s a couple of things that people maybe missed a little bit from this analysis. The first one is, I can’t remember the exact statistic, but over 50% of the plastic in the ocean comes from fishnets, right? So just fishnets that have not been disposed of properly.

John: Really?

Renée: A lot of people don’t realize it.

John: So again, it’s not post-consumer waste, all the plastic, part of it is just fishnets.

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Renée: Fishnets, right.

John: Never heard that ever. The media and I’ve never heard that ever.

Renée: Never. The people are shocked to find this out.

John: Wow.

Renée: Another problem is plastic, like PET, floats, right? So if it’s in the ocean, you’re going to see it. Who knows how many aluminum cans are at the bottom of the Mariana Trench? Because you can’t get down there, right? So the problem is – it’s super visible, right? So if you’re going around, you can see these plastic islands floating around because it floats, right? Now, there are a lot of accurate causes for concern. So, microplastics – the jury I think is still kind of out on to, just like anything else, we haven’t had long term so we don’t know long-term effects on health, but they found it in human placentas and unborn babies. You’ve got microplastics in human waste. I mean, it’s everywhere. We are definitely consuming microplastics because plastic breaks down and it gets really fine. And so that is probably a cause for concern. I don’t know what the level of microplastics in your body that’s acceptable is, and what’s not acceptable? I don’t think anyone knows that but I think we can all agree that it can’t be a lot, right?

John: Minimum plastics in the body, I think that is a baseline hope for all of us.

Renée: Right. Exactly. And, we all right now are doing it, and probably, again, it’s hard to tell what’s coming off it because we all have it. So that’s a problem that I think is a legitimate concern. But plastic is also very flexible, very strong, and very lightweight. So essentially anything that you replace plastic with is going to increase carbon footprint a lot like two or three times the carbon footprint. And so if you’re Molson Coors or some other, I don’t know how many six-pack rings are used globally. Probably a couple of billion every year. If you increase the carbon footprint associated with that, times 3, that’s a lot. There are some scientists who have posited, of course, this is someone’s opinion, not a definite fact, some people have posited that rising ocean temperatures caused by global warming will kill more marine life than plastics will, somebody’s opinion but it’s just, we have to be really careful when we’re swapping out one thing for another. Because as my old boss used to say, “The role of packaging is not to be recyclable, the role of packaging is to keep something safe until you can get it home.” And so food waste is a really big problem in western society. If food waste were a country, it would be the third-largest generator of greenhouse gas emissions after the US and China. So what you don’t want is to say, well, plastic-free food is necessarily better because if a thin layer of plastic around your cucumber is the difference between you consuming it versus it goes bad before you get around to it, not that it ever happened to me, of course. But we’ve all been there, we’re you’re like, oh man, it’s so sad. And so if that layer of plastic would have made the difference, then the benefit of the plastic far exceeds the downsides of the plastic.

And so I think that a lot of people want to demonize plastic, and again, I don’t think that it’s always wrong but it’s not always right either. I think it’s a lot more complicated than that. Something that’s recyclable is great but only if it actually ends up getting recycled so aluminum cans are infinitely recyclable, you can use them over and over and over again and they never lose unlike plastic that’s only going to make it through so many times but only about one and two aluminum cans get recycled in the United States right now. Only three in ten plastic bottles get recycled and so everything is only as good as the people who use it, right? Glass bottles, it’s the same way. The carbon footprint associated with an aluminum can or glass bottle is significantly lower. I think it’s 95 percent lower in aluminum cans to make a second aluminum can out of a first aluminum can versus oxide, rolling the aluminum, and all that jazz.

John: It’s the highest metal in terms of recycling. all metals are recyclable as you said and most are infinitely recyclable as you just said, but aluminum sets the benchmark up in 94, 95 percent, which is fascinating. Out of your materials, Renée, are you just in charge of the plastic? Or are you focused on, in terms of your division, in terms of sustainable packaging, is it both the paper boxes that the beers come in, the six-packs and also the cases and also the glass and also plastic or is it just plastic? And then someone else handles the glass, someone else handles the pulp?

Renée: Sure. So I have a bit of a hybrid role at Molson Coors. So I do category management for a lot of our plastic applications which are ultimately the most difficult to get to the recyclable goal we have set out for ourselves. One of Molson Coors’s sustainable packaging goals is to be a hundred percent recyclable, reusable, or compostable by 2025, and so much of what we produce is in a bottle, a can, and/or a box where we kind of started out pretty well done. However, what’s leftover is extremely problematic – it’s six-pack rings and it is shrink wrap and it’s some bottles that are malt liquor beverages come in that are not recyclable and current infrastructure most of the time. So that is a problem. And so I represent procurement on sustainable packaging initiatives and then I also manage a lot of our plastics bin.

John: So in terms of definitions. When you define, now with the background, the fascinating background that you had even leading up to joining Molson Coors and what you’re doing now and all the knowledge you’ve gained now, sitting in the position you sit, what’s your definition today of sustainable packaging? How far of a delta do we have to go between your 2025 goals at Molson Coors and 2021? Those four years are high-hurdle or you’re almost there? Where are you on the journey?

Renée: Sure, so kind of two different questions there. So the first one, I would say that when I personally go to purchase things, the sustainable packaging is whatever I can presume has the lowest carbon footprint associated with protecting what I’m purchasing. Okay? So, I was joking with a friend the other day about going to a gas station on a road trip and trying to figure out which water to buy, and I was just like, “Okay, let me pull up my life cycle analyses,” that I had the pride to figure out what and it’s like it can be a little burdensome, right? But to me and David Alloway, who is with the Oregon Department of Ecology? DEQ – Department of Environmental Quality. He did a study that basically was trying to figure out, like a rule of thumb. So if you have no other information and you have different packaging applications in front of you, what’s the one thing you can look for that you should at least say, “Well, with no other information, without a full-scale life cycle analysis in front of me and to paint with a very broad brush, after looking at a bunch of different packaging types and whatnot that recycled content in the package itself was the best predictor of low carbon footprint.” You should keep an eye out for any packaging that boasts recycled content and then after that, it’s the lowest weight and then after that comes recyclability, which I think is probably very backward from how most of us consider things because recyclability is just a concept that most of us understand that a lot of people for the most part believe in. Although, there are some concerns about what actually happens to the material when it gets to MRF and that’s a whole other conversation. But I think that that would probably surprise most people. So I would recommend that you look for packaging with recycled content in there and go on social media or whatever and demand companies do it. And a lot of companies out there have now got pretty aggressive recycled content goals.

As far as Molson Coors on its journey to the goals, we have our work cut out for us. There are options out there to replace plastic where we’re currently using plastic but essentially almost every alternative, costs more, is slower, and has a larger carbon footprint. Any one of those would be bad but all three together is very difficult. But ultimately, it’s what the consumer wants and so what we have to do is within consumer preference, find the best solution that we can that doesn’t significantly increase carbon footprint and that also still checks all the sort of, you might call them like invisible boxes that we have in our head. So, one thing I’ve learned is while reading through some focus grouping that we did is the importance of being able to pick up a six-pack with one hand and so you can do that easily with plastic, you trust that it’s not going to fall out but with some of the cardboard applications that are out there, you kind of need a second hand to sort of, and just that small thing of needing your second hand could make the difference between buying one brand versus another brand. It’s kind of amazing how things like that play into the conscience of the consumer.

So we want to make sure that we are not making anything more difficult. We don’t want things falling out and spilling or hurting people or anything like that, right? So making sure that we’re hitting the consumer preference, but also ensuring that again, if the package fails and the beer pops open on your sidewalk, then the packaging has failed. Everything that went into the beer, the growing up properly, the water, the energy, the transport, all of that is lost.

John: It’s a loss.

Renée: It’s all lost, exactly. So I’m working on that. So shrink wrap and six-pack rings, I think are sort of final frontier for us. Molson Coors in Europe and many of our competitors as well have found some non-plastic solutions for six-pack rings. And so, without saying too much I think that in order to meet our goals, we’ll have to find one that works in the states as well.

John: Got it. Renée, from where you sit now, is it sort of crazy and a shame that in 2021 in the United States, and correct me if I’m wrong, I thought we only have 11 states that have bottle redemption laws? Is that sort of close to the reality of it?

Renée: That’s correct. It’s 10 or 11. So I’m going to choose my words carefully. Bottle Bill States tend to have much higher recycling rates than states that do not have bottle redemption things. However, many companies have been hesitant to endorse a Bottle Bill which effectively is a tax on the product. So, I mean, in my relatively short time frame in sustainable packaging, companies are changing their mind. So American, for example, is the industry group for packaging providers. So I was very familiar with American when I worked at Sunoco and they did a webinar today on extended producer responsibility. Essentially what American has decided which mirrors some of what I’ve heard from other companies is that they’ve come to realize that something is coming, and it’s better to have a seat at the table and talk through concerns you have than pretend it’s not ever going to happen, you know? And so American ostensibly was formed to fight against EPR bills and so it was a little jarring today to hear them saying, “This is what we would want to see in one. This is what’s important to us. We want to make sure that this is included and that this is not,” and just sort of laying out what their asks would be, essentially, and sort of working with legislators, as opposed to just saying, “My position is I’m opposed,” because EPR, extended producer responsibility essentially is the concept that producers or brand owners, depending on the state and where you are, are essentially responsible for the cost of the end of life of your package. It’s very common in Europe. I think every EU country has a fee structure, every province in Canada has one, and nothing in the United States.

John Oliver, a week and a half ago on Last Week Tonight did a big push for extended producer responsibility which I would suspect a lot of people who are watching, it was the first time that they had heard of that and what it was and it’s one of those things that Canada is doing, that Europe is doing, what is it in the United States that’s preventing us from doing this, right? And so I’m curious to see if that will turn into action or if everyone uses the hashtag ones and forgets about it. It’s hard to say, right? But I think what the industry groups are starting to presume is that it’s coming and if it’s coming then you want to make sure that their packaging experts sitting at the table with people who are making these laws to make sure that the laws are going to have the impact that they are intended to have, that they’re going to cover what they intend to cover and that it’s fair.

John: Yeah. And Renée, to be fair. I didn’t ask that question to be a gotcha moment, because I know you represent a wonderful great producer in this country that everyone, and me including, enjoys your products. It was just more of a general question nor did I have any idea whatsoever that the American had a call today. Just the timing seems– let me just share this. While having watching John Oliver’s show that you referenced which I think was quite well done because it does make a case for that. And given that I’m in an industry that also has extended producer responsibility, the electronic waste recycling industry, and many of the producers and OEMs who are are my clients as well. I tend to take a more balanced approach in that – yes, it’s a shame that, yes, we only have 11 states or 10 states that have a bottle bill today, but the truth be known with your generation and I really say this with kindness and affection and also with awe because my generation is passing the torch to your generation right now and that’s great. And your generation taking over both media as Oliver and politics and Corporate America, where you sit, I think there has to be a balanced approach because the truth is – all the stakeholders in the process, the producers, the retailers, the consumers all really have a vested interest in breathing cleaner air, drinking cleaner water, and also enjoying your products. So to me, burdening just one stakeholder with the burden of keeping the world clean and making the world a better place is somewhat unfair given where we are in 2021.

So, from where I sit, I think there has to be a balanced approach. And yes, you need to be, as a stakeholder at the table if those laws are coming because your generation is now going to be taking over the Senate and the Congress and the White House eventually as well. Again, I think there has to be a balanced approach because all of us – all of us, no matter what political party affiliation, or any of that kind of stuff, agree. We want your daughter, my granddaughter, my children to drink cleaner water, breathe cleaner air, and we all want to leave the world a little better than we found it. So, I applaud what you just said, but I really believe we all have a vested interest in becoming a stakeholder that participates in the process as well.

Renée: Right. And I would say if you’re not a fan of government intervention, then you have to intervene yourself – are you recycling everything that’s possible? Have you checked with your local municipality to make sure that you’re not sending anything that they don’t accept? Because it does vary, municipality to municipality, and if you live in a big metropolitan area where you work and where you live and where your gym is and your children’s school might all go to different MRFs, which means they may all have little things that they don’t accept or they do accept or they only accept every other Tuesday or what have you, it can be a little tedious but it’s super important. And I will also say this – a lot of material recovery facilities pre-Covid and post-Covid, I’m sure, love to give tours to people and I think it’s one of those things that I can describe to you how MRF operates but seeing it is just so impactful and if you can’t see it, there are videos on YouTube but it goes through the sorting process and we’ll help you understand why you should flatten your boxes but not your aluminum cans, for example. And so, little things like that because they say that there was one MRF that added a second eddy current which is the mechanism that sorts out the aluminum cans. And I think captured something like 20% more aluminum cans which means something was happening that kept 20% of the cans that went into the MRF from actually being recycled, right? So either they were flattened so they ended up with the paper or maybe you drink your beer and then you put the can back in the case and then sort it back out, sorted with paper or what have you but you want to make sure that if you’re going through the effort of putting everything in your curbside bin and hopefully you are, that you’re making sure that you’re not doing something without realizing it that isn’t keeping it from actually getting recycled.

John: Great. Renée, you’re doing great work. I want to give you the last word to share anything, any tips, or anything you’d like with our listeners and viewers out there who are also your consumers and potential consumers. So, I like to give you the last word, and then I’ll sign off for us after your thoughts.

Renée: Yeah. I mean, thanks for listening. I hope you guys all go out and enjoy a cold Molson Coors product tonight. I enjoy the light sky a lot, that’s my favorite newer Molson product but when you do, make sure you recycle your package when it’s done and for the rare moments when you’re out buying something that’s not a Molson product, food, or something else, try to look for packaging with recycled content and try to make sure that you’re using the best lightest package that you can that still protects the product inside.

John: Thank you. Thank you so much, Renée, and for our listeners out there who want to find Renée and her colleagues at Molson Coors, please go to, click on the Sustainability page to get inspired and read their ESG report or their imprint report. They’re doing so many great things in sustainability. Renée Paris, you are making a great impact and making the world a better place. Thank you for joining us today on the Impact podcast.

Renée: My pleasure. Thank you, John. Take care.

John: This edition of the Impact podcast is brought to you by the Marketing Masters. The Marketing Masters is a boutique marketing agency offering website development and digital marketing services to small and medium businesses across America. For more information on how they can help you grow your business online, please visit