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John: This edition of The Impact Podcast is brought to you by ERI. ERI has a mission to protect people, the planet, and your privacy and is the largest fully integrated IT and electronics asset disposition provider and cybersecurity-focused hardware destruction company in the United States and maybe even the world. For more information on how ERI can help your business properly dispose of outdated electronic Hardware devices, please visit eridirect.com.

John: This edition of the impact podcast is brought to you by ENGAGE. ENGAGE is a digital booking platform, revolutionizing the talent booking industry. With thousands of athletes, celebrities, entrepreneurs, and business leaders, ENGAGE is the go-to spot for booking talent for speeches, custom experiences, live streams, and much more. For more information on ENGAGE, or to book talent today, visit. letsengage.com.

John: Welcome to another edition of THE IMPACT PODCAST. I’m John Shegerian and we’re so honored to have you with us today, Adam Shalapin. He’s the director of global sustainability at Ball Corporation. Welcome to the impact podcast, Adam.

Adam Shalapin: Thank you, John. It’s a pleasure to be here with you and your listeners today.

John: You get to be in Denver Colorado today, I’m in Fresno, California and the new year has already rung in, so it’s great to be together, talking about sustainability and the great brand ball today in the New Year. Adam, before we get taught here directly about your role as a director of global sustainability at Ball, share a little bit about how you got here, your journey, where grew up, where you got educated, and some of the jobs you had before taking this important role at the Ball Corporation.

Adam: Sure. Thanks, John. So I grew up in a small town called Millstadt, Illinois, just outside of St. Louis, Missouri, and ended up getting my Bachelor’s in Chemical Engineering at the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign. And I knew that I always wanted to do something in the environmental space and that was largely driven by all of the movement around the climate that was happening at the time. And I thought to myself, you know, this is going to be big. And that propelled me into working in the environmental consulting space for a little bit and working with companies and developing greenhouse gas emission inventories and energy management and carbon emissions reduction strategies, and eventually, it led me to work at United Airlines, which was a fantastic experience. And, you know, the transportation industry is so pivotal in the transformation to a low-carbon economy. and that eventually landed me at Ball Corporation here in Denver, Colorado. And it’s been a fantastic experience to work for Ball. And for your listeners who aren’t familiar with Ball, they’re one of the world’s leading suppliers of aluminum packaging for the beverage, personal care, as in household products industry, so we produce over 100 billion beverage cans around the world each year and we have about 70 manufacturing facilities around the world. We employ over 24,000 people. And all of that wrapped together and translated into net sales of about 13.8 billion dollars in 2021. So that’s a picture of who Ball is, and also a little bit of background of myself and how I got here today.

John: And for our listeners and viewers who want to find Adam and his great colleagues at Ball, they could go to www.balls.com. Talk a little bit about your role at United Airlines, you were in the sustainability section as well at United.

Adam: That’s right. So it was a combined environmental and sustainability team.

John: And so, at Ball now as the director of global sustainability, talk about some of the sustainability goals you and your colleagues have set there and the progress you’ve made along the way.

Adam: Sure. So I can talk a little bit about my role. I’ve been at Ball for about six and a half years. And as director of global sustainability, my role is really to help lead the development and execution of Ball’s sustainability strategy. And all of that really taken into consideration, our most important stakeholders like our customers, our investors, and also our co-workers and prospective employees. And day-to-day, that really… and Ball’s setting our sustainability goals and building cross-functional teams to reduce impact throughout the value chain and create a competitive advantage for our products to make sure that sustainability is really driving our business. And I get to do all of this with an immediate team of amazing sustainability professionals. And I also get to work very closely with all the different functions around Ball, from commercial to operations and engineering to innovation and finance and treasury investor relations, and so on. So it’s been a great experience at Ball so far.

John: And when you came in there six and a half years ago, Adam, did someone already have that role in and you were feeling somebody’s shoes or is this a new role at Ball? How does that work from a DNA perspective of Ball?

Adam: Sure. So like most companies, the sustainability organization within Ball has evolved tremendously over the past six and a half years. From the time that I joined, I think we had three people around the globe, so we’re working on sustainability, to now, we have a global team, we have a chief sustainability officer, and we are embedded within the strategy functions within each of our businesses. It has changed tremendously. And like most sustainability professionals, our day-to-day, or our jobs seem to change a little bit more each year depending on the macro trends out in the world and what consumers and customers and retailers, NGOs, and governments are finding important.

John: You know, as most of our listeners know already, [inaudible] is a minority investor in ERI and sits out on our board since 2011, and it’s been a great relationship with them, but I got to learn about aluminum through their eyes, but a lot of our listeners don’t really understand or know much about aluminum and its typical ecosystem of aluminum. So, talk a little bit about the benefits of aluminum from a sustainability perspective and why it’s called the infinite recyclable, how that helps in terms of the decarbonization of the beverage container industry, and how that really helps give some wind at its back.

Adam: Yeah. So aluminum is a fantastic material. And just for reference, Ball Corporation… many people are familiar with Ball Corporation because of the glass jars that they used to make this.

John: That’s right.

Adam: Then in [inaudible], we’ve been in the plastics business and we specifically exited those businesses and focused strictly on aluminum because of its credentials, its properties, and its great sustainability credentials. So first of all, aluminum beverage cans are largely one material; aluminum, right? As opposed to some of the packaging out there that you see, it’s multi-material, making it more difficult to recycle. And aluminum as a material is easily sorted and it’s easily and infinitely recyclable as a material, as you alluded to, but with no loss of body, meaning that when a can is recycled, that material could be back on the shelf as a new can within 60 days. Unlike some of the other beverage packaging materials out there, it’s fully recyclable despite colors or formats. There’s no need to sort out the different colors of cans like you will with glass or plastic. And perhaps the most important, and you probably know this, John from your old work is that it has economic value, and how important that is because it helps [inaudible] the incentive for aluminum recycling. So for context, at a material recycling facility that accepts [inaudible] similar [inaudible] of recycling, aluminum can typically be around 3% of the volume that comes through that facility, but it can make up 30 to 50 percent of the revenue lot[?] of that facility as [inaudible]. And so because of all of this, aluminum beverage cans are actually the most recycled beverage packaging in the world, with a rating of 69%, and it’s estimated that 75% of aluminum that’s ever put in play as a material is still in use today.

John: Then well, Adam, you’re a Sustainability… how do we say this the right way, “OG”. You’ve been doing this a long time, and six and a half years at Ball, but way before that as well. The shift from the linear to the circular economy and the word circularity, and even the acronym ESG, really wasn’t part of our vernacular 20 years ago, even 15 years ago, even 7 to 8 years ago, it wasn’t really widely used or discussed. But we reached a tipping point somewhere in the last two, maybe three to four years maximum. And the shift from a linear to a circular economy is truly underway and getting accelerated more and more, every quarter after every quarter. Talk a little bit about why it’s important to advance a circularity movement vis-a-vis, what you do in the beverage packaging industry, and what your chosen path or paths to achieve circularity at Ball are.

Adam: Absolutely. And I think your question ties back to your last question as well, it’s why it’s important from a carbon standpoint.

John: Sure.

Adam: So I believe that it’s estimated by The Ellen MacArthur Foundation that even if we as a society were to address electricity, transportation, and fossil fuel use that 40% of the decarbonization that needs to happen to be in line with one and a half degree pathway is related to driving a circular economy, and all of the materials that we use and the agriculture that happens to put food on the tables and all the materials that come into our house. And so the circular economy and the link between how we use material and the climate challenge is more present than ever before. And the lake has become incredibly clear. So why recycling is so important specifically for aluminum beverage cans? It’s that there is a 95% energy stables when using recycled aluminum compared to virgin aluminum. And so you can use that as a proxy for carbon savings as well. It is dramatic. And so, when we think about our own goals at Ball to achieve Net Zero prior to 2050 or earlier and to deliver a highly decarbonized can to our customers, we really see circularity and specifically recycling for the aluminum can as deliberate on that pathway. So driving higher recycling rates and increasing recycled content in our cans and decreasing the carbon footprint of the products that we’re delivering to our customers. And all of that really starts with the way that the product is designed what materials it’s using, ensuring that we have the proper technology and infrastructure and policy in place, and a lot of that is really really laid out in our vision for circularity, which would I would encourage your listeners to check out [inaudible] sustainability in beverages.

John: That’s wonderful. That’s a great point you make about the [inaudible]. It seems as though more and more OEMS at all cross-sections of industries are creating divisions that are called something akin to design for sustainability, is that the same thing in terms of Ball, in terms of your engineers and your design team, is there a design for sustainability team at Ball, working on all those forward-thinking issues?

Adam: Sure. So through our innovation and process, to start with, there have been a lot of great industry guidelines that have been put out there in terms of designing for sustainability, specifically within the packaging space and other industries as well. And so that’s a great place to start. And then from an internal process standpoint, you know, it’s our goal to not only have a sustainability team that’s working on sustainability but really to ingrain sustainability throughout the different functions at Ball. So within our Innovation Team, we actually have a stage-gate process that involves [inaudible] that recyclability. Not just recyclability but collectability and sortability within material recycling facilities. Then recyclability, looking at carbon footprints, looking and we’re still maintaining a single material rather than adding other components. So, it’s absolutely a part of our innovation process because we see the criteria that I laid out earlier that make aluminum beverage packaging so great and so pivotal to driving our business, and the last thing we want to do is messed that up.

John: Got it. And since we’re talking about circularity in the beverage packaging industry, talk a little bit about your vision for a perfect circle. Can you elaborate a little bit on that vision?

Adam: Yeah. So, really, what that comes down to is hoping to advance a circular economy where aluminum beverage packaging is 100% collection and 100% recycled and comes back right into aluminum cans, can-to-can recycling. And now there will always be some form of yield loss dictated by the laws of physics and thermodynamics. It is very small for cans, it’s at about 2% oxidation in the actual recycling process compared to higher yield losses that happen with other substrates. So that vision, we feel is achievable. When we look at the policy mechanisms that have been put into place in Europe, for example, where we see extremely high recycling rates of 90% plus. When we look at… Although there are challenges with informal economies that drive these recycling rates. In Brazil, we see the recycling rate at 98%. So we see opportunities to formalize those economies around those collections and continued to achieve those high recycling rates. So we know that it’s possible when we know the criteria that need to be put in place from a policy perspective to get there. It’s just a matter of building the right coalitions and driving alignment to do so.

John: Got it. And for our listeners and viewers who just joined us, we’ve got Adam Shalapin with us. He’s the director of global sustainability at The Ball Corporation. To find Adam and his colleagues and all the great work they’re doing in sustainability at Ball, please go to www.ball.com. Tell us now a little bit about your Ball Aluminum Cup, Adam.

Adam: Sure. So this has been a project that the Innovation team spurred a number of years ago and it really rose out of going to venues and stadiums and even in your local retail stores, it’s just a sea of single-use plastic cups, right? And those cups often are not being recycled or are incredibly difficult to resell even if they are collected. [inaudible] with this product was to provide an alternative [inaudible] that’s highly circular and easily recyclable and also a great product. [inaudible] and people really enjoy drinking out of it and so that really gave birth to the Ball Aluminum Cup and it’s been received fantastically by consumers. They really enjoyed it for its premium nature and it also makes them feel good about the product that they are using from a sustainability perspective, as we know that consumers are increasingly focused on choosing sustainable alternatives when it’s easily and readily presented to them. So we’ve seen venues start to convert to the Ball Aluminum Cup and you can actually buy the Ball Aluminum Cup in the [inaudible]. It’s available in retail stores in all 50 states in the US. So hopefully, your listeners can look for those on the shelf of the store [inaudible].

John: You know, Adam, you bring up a good point; consumers. You bring up the point of consumers. You know, what I’ve seen in my generation, I’m 60, my generation really wasn’t exposed to sustainability [inaudible] circular economy formally or informally vis-à-vis, the traditional media or traditional education sources. Your generation and younger, obviously, have been greatly exposed to the terminology and the trends that are now really seeming to take hold with regard to sustainability. Talk a little bit about consumers now, especially your generation and below, voting with their pocketbooks when it comes down to sustainable options and how Ball continue to innovate toward what they see, as you said earlier, the major trends towards the consumer demands.

Adam: Yeah, and first off, I want to thank you for making me feel younger than I actually am with those comments and putting me into that younger generation, so [inaudible].

John: You deserve it.

Adam: It’s true. There is a lot of heightened awareness around the consumer. And brands recognize that as well. So for example, five years ago, about 25% of new beverage products that were coming onto the market in the US were coming out in aluminum beverage cans. Now, fast forward to ’21, ’22 that number is 75 percent.

John: Wow!

Adam: So we really are seeing brands start to recognize what the consumer is looking for from a sustainability perspective and start to act on that. So I think about myself going to any regular shoe stores near [inaudible] and I to see plastic-free aisles, I start to see drink coolers and shelves that are continually dominated by cans. So I think we are starting to really see that the super demand for sustainable option translate into brand choices and what’s going unto the shelves. I think that one of the critiques of the assessment of the younger generations and voting with their pocketbooks is that there often is a society of gap. And so I think as far as Innovation, we need to continually try to innovate for sustainability, but also meet the consumer whether they’re at from a biased point as well. And so I think that that will always continue to be the challenge of the entire packaging industry and sustainability in general. It’s how to [inaudible] deliver on the expectation, so those customers and be efficient then.

John: You know, obviously, sustainability is a great part of Ball’s DNA and culture. But it’s now part of the circular economy. The ESG sustainability world is radical transparency and reporting on, not only doing the great work that you’re doing but reporting that in a way that’s easily understandable and findable. Talk a little bit about reporting, given that this is now needed and wanted by Wall Street investors, analysts, consumers, etcetera. How do you go about doing your ESG impact sustainability reporting, how often, and how does that process look to you?

Adam: Sure. Transparency is the name of the game these days, for sure. And it’s synonymous with credibility at this point, at this juncture. For our investors, our customers, our customer’s customers, and retailers, transparency is a way of really demonstrating that you walk the walk, like, not just talk the talk. And so I hope that I get this founding year right, but I believe that our first sustainability report was as far back as 2008. So Ball has really made a commitment to reporting on its sustainability initiatives and progress for quite some time now. And one of the key areas where I think Ball is ahead of the industry average is that we’ve really been having our sustainability data assured for quite some time. And so, all of the sustainability data that we calculate in terms of our performance, our suppliers’ performance, how that rolls into our total carbon footprint or Scope 1 through 3 emissions, our water use, our ways to use, and waste generation is all assured by a third-party provider. And that, in itself, really helps establish the next level of credibility to the information and record it in the marketplace. And so we continue to report to all the major external ratings and rankings firms. And the last year was actually the first year that we released our first combined annual reports. So we transitioned from a solo sustainability standalone report every two years to wrapping our annual report and our sustainability report together. And really, that was meant to be a signal as to how sustainability drives our business, and to be able to communicate that to the investor community. This year is a Hallmark year because last year, we really rolled out our ambitious 2030 sustainability goals. And this year will be the first year that we get your report on progress on those goals at a very transparent level.

John: Great. And what time of year… Is that published?

Adam: Sure. So traditionally, that report was published around a June-July timeframe. But with the changes in the SMC and disclosure around climate risk and opportunity and a lot of this information being pushed to come out in a February-March timeframe, our combination with our annual report will be pushed up to at least a February-March timeline.

John: Wow! So it’s early in the year every year.

Adam: Well, it’s a lot of [inaudible].

John: It’s a lot of work, I can imagine. You know, Adam, you’re a humble guy, but Ball is a founding member of the World Economic Forum’s First Movers Coalition for aluminum. Can you share what that really means and what that entails for Ball?

Adam: Absolutely. So, as much as I talked about recycling and the energy savings, the carbon savings from recycling, and just how incredible recycling will be to achieving a Net Zero world for aluminum, demand for aluminum across the transportation sector, the packaging sector, and the aerospace sector is increasing. And so, we also have to address the primary [inaudible] sector. What the First Movers Coalition and joining that along with some of our key suppliers and customers is really meant to send a demand signal that there is going to be, there is now and, it’s going to be a demand for low carbon by marrying aluminum. That demand signal really allows key suppliers within the primary aluminum industry to begin to make investments to meet those demands. And so, by joining the First Movers Coalition, we have committed to purchasing 10% of the primary aluminum that comes into our [inaudible] but we make it into cans as low-carbon aluminum, which is defined as a threshold of 3 tons of carbon dioxide equivalent per ton of lowering them. And just for context, that level of carbon intensity, primarily aluminum, really requires new and innovative technologies such as the use of [inaudible] anodes that are not necessarily at a commercial scale now. But with these demand signals, we’ll hopefully drive the investment and then the production at a commercial scale [inaudible].

John: Got it. Adam, you know, it’s obvious that sustainability is of paramount importance at Ball. Before we have to say goodbye to this episode, do you have any final thoughts to share with our audience members for today?

Adam: I think my final thought is to choose aluminum and to keep recycling.

John: I love those thoughts, Adam. Thank you for joining us today at The Impact Podcast. Thank you and the Ball Corporation for making the world a better place.

Adam: Thank you, John. I really appreciate the time.

John: This episode of The Impact Podcast is brought to you by Closed Loop Partners. Closed Loop Partners is a leading circular economy investor in the United States with an extensive network of Fortune 500 corporate investors, family offices, institutional investors, industry experts, and impact partners. Closed Loop’s platform spans the arc of capital from venture capital to private equity, bridging gaps, and fostering synergies to scale the circular economy. To find Closed Loop Partners, please go to www.closedlooppartners.com.

John: This edition of The Impact Podcast is brought to you by ERI. ERI has a mission to protect people, the planet, and your privacy and is the largest fully integrated IT and electronics asset disposition provider and cybersecurity-focused hardware destruction company in the United States and maybe even the world. For more information on how ERI can help your business properly dispose of outdated electronic Hardware devices, please visit eridirect.com.

John Shegerian: Do you have a suggestion for a Rockstar Impact podcast guest? Go to impact podcast.com and just click Be a Guest to recommend Someone today. This edition of The Impact Podcast is brought to you by ERI. ERI has a mission to protect people, the planet and your privacy, and is the largest fully integrated IT and electronics asset disposition provider, and cybersecurity focused hardware destruction company in the United States and maybe even the world. For more information on how ERI can help your business properly dispose of outdated electronic hardware devices, please visit ERI direct.com. This edition of The Impact Podcast is brought to you by Engage. Engage is a digital booking platform, revolutionizing the talent booking industry with thousands of athletes, celebrities, entrepreneurs, and business leaders engages the go-to spot for booking talent, for speeches, custom experiences, live streams, and much more. For more information on Engage or to book talent today, visit, letsengage.com.

John: Welcome to another edition of The Impact podcast. I’m John [inaudible]. I’m so excited to have with us today. Robert Taylor. He’s the applications manager and systems engineering marketing for Texas Instruments. Welcome to the Impact Podcast, Robert.

Robert Taylor: John, thanks so much. I am excited to be here. Really looking forward to this conversation today.

John: You have a big title, but we’re going to be talking about energy today and energy efficiency. And before we get to that, can you just share a little bit about your background and even you got here, Robert?

Robert: Yeah, for sure. So as, you can see from the background university of Florida, so go gainers. I got my bachelor’s degree in Master’s degree in electrical engineering. From there, first really got interested in electronics and you know, electricity, all of it. Because my father, so he was in the Navy and so he was a electronics technician for 25 years in the Navy. And so when I went to schooling the, I wanted to do engineering, electrical was kind of a natural path for me, and it’s been interesting ever since. You know, electrical engineering is a fascinating topic for me. And it’s affecting the world, all different kinds of things. It’s crazy [inaudible]

John: You know. How long ago did you join TI? How long have you been at Texas?

Robert: I’ve been at TI for a little bit more than 20 years now. So I joined Straight out of school. It’s the only job I’ve ever had. It’s great. Love TI. They’ve treated me very well. And you know, as a company we’ve always kind of been on the cutting edge of different technologies and different things that are going on, and It’s amazing to be able to impact so many different industries, so many different types of applications and different devices. It’s just very fulfilling, I would say, to be [inaudible].

John: You know for our listeners and viewers to find Robert and his great colleagues who are doing important work that affects the whole planet right now, especially since energy is one of the top issues on the planet. You could go to www.ti.com, that’s Texas Instruments. You know, coup a few months back, we had your wonderful colleague Pradeep Shink with us Yeah. To talk about sustainable energy. And this is sort of a follow up interview, and we’re so glad to have Texas Instruments back and have you on today Robert. We’re going to more specifically talk about energy efficiency and what’s going on right now. You know, obviously as we’re trying to move from a linear to circular economy and everyone’s trying to chase this wonderful goal of net zero and carbon emissions and get the carbon neutrality, we’re trying to do more with less. And so can you explain with regards to energy doing more with less, where semiconductors play a role in doing more with less across the planet?

Robert: Yeah, it’s a great point, John. So you know, there’s so many different things, whether it’s electric vehicles or it’s just reading today of the news. They want to get rid of gas stoves in people’s homes, right? [crosstalk] I can’t have gas throwing my home anymore, right? So now, so many different things moving from machine power to either, whether it’s gas or you know, other types of energy to electrical energy. And that’s going to do a number of different things. So one you know, I’m in the state of Texas, so we have our old power grid here, right? And so a lot of people probably remember when the power grid would strain, and as we started adding more electric vehicles, more electric machines in the, all more servers, data centers to handle all of the, AI big data that’s going on you know, it’s really going to put a strain on the energy grid. And some of the things that we’re doing at TI in terms of helping with efficiency of some of the, our conversion different things like that via through semiconductor. It is really going to make an impact small, if you think about it when you have a large amount of electricity and you’re trying to translate it through to a different level you know, a 1% gain in efficiency could impact a huge number of things there. And so you know, being able to handle things more efficiently, being able to drive the more effectiveness out of the grid, do more you know, computations or whatever it may be. Let’s take a data center for example, right? So, if I have a data center that has 50 megawatts of power coming in, if I have to spend that cooling the data center, inefficiencies and power offices, different things like that, that’s less YouTube videos that somebody could be watching that’s less you know, stock trades to get done on a single server, right? And so company are looking to increase the efficiency and if TI is really helping to push those boundaries.

John: You know, this issue you’re in Texas, I’m in California. Both states have faced just in the last year power losses. Talk a little bit about the innovations TI is doing in semiconductors to help keep power losses out of minimum.

Robert: Yeah, so one of the biggest industries that TI focused on within the industrial space is grid infrastructure. So grid infrastructure is going through a lot of changes where we have, whether it’s mechanical relays switching to solid state relays. High voltage translation different types of things where semiconductors are now able to be utilized as spaces that they weren’t before to build more reliable grids, to be able to switch different types of loading and things that are going on at a higher level so that we still run into those situations where we bring down the whole grid because of one failure. That’s somewhere else. It Texas [inaudible] involved in a lot of those different spaces to improve that quality of the power that’s being delivered. And also to reduce the downtime.

John: Give us a couple of idea versions of the innovations that in semiconductors that you’re doing to help reduce those power losses.

Robert: Yeah. so you know, to move back to the data center example for one, so right now you know, semiconductors in general are kind of on what we call the 3rd generation. So the first generation, there’s bipolar transistors and a lot of older technologies, some of which don’t get cute. The 2nd generation silicon moset, which are the backbone of all of the semiconductors that are used across many different industries. And now we’re moving into the third generation with wide band [inaudible] Provide the solicit silicon carbide or gallium nitride. And so TI per example is using gallium nitride in server applications for these data centers. Where we can improve the efficiency one to 2% over what’s currently available. And so that means a few different things. So one, I could get more computing hour, I don’t have to wait power cooling the server or the data center. Two, I could fit more servers into a given area. And these are being used wildly. So AI is taken a look if you look at like medical imaging and medical records and different stuff that’s going on there, right? Just think like every time when you would go to get, at least when I was a kid, they go get an x-ray, you go in there, they take a picture and they put it up on the thing. Now all of that’s digital, right? Like even if you go to the dentist now. It’s all digital and all of that information has to get store somewhere. And as we generate more and more content, more you know, videos, images even just like this podcast for example, this has to go in somewhere on a server servers, but if people can view it, and if we can improve the efficiency of the electricity to get delivered to that machine, so that people can access the content, that’s hugely beneficial to everyone.

John: You know, we get to deal with a lot of OEMs here at ERI with what the position that you sit at at Robert at Texas Instruments is designed for sustainability. Now a big deal at TI And is it officially named that or is it just what you do now? Is it just part of your culture and DNA.

Robert: Yeah, I would say it’s part of the culture, but still It’s kind of a shift in mindset, right? So a lot of customers would say, okay, give me the bare minimum cost in order to meet this set of goals or target specifications, right? So let’s say the power supply cost $50. Now people are saying, okay, I understand that the power supply costs $50, but if you could save me $50 in electricity over the car course of the next 3 years, right? I’m more interested in that. So total cost of ownership, whether you deliver a higher, more engineered valued product to the customer, maybe it costs more initially, but it’s going to save them money over time. A lot of people are really interested in that

John: Gallium nitride. Let’s go back to that now. You know, I’ve never heard of that element. Should you give a little bit, were you guys the first to employ or deploy the use of that to pick up that one to 2% and wide bang gap technology? Or was that something that was, or how did that work?

Robert: Develop a transfer, I would say going on in the industry right now. TI is not the first one to develop gallium nitride process. But one thing that TI is very good at is you know, manufacturing in general. And doing it at a cost effective pace. So because of the scale and because of the amount of manufacturing capabilities that we have, we’re able to offer technology to a wider array of customers at a more reasonable cost than, some of our competitors. So for example you know, back to the gallium nitride specifically you know, these devices allow it to operate at faster switching speed and more efficiently. So that basically equates to, I could build something that’s smaller, that’s more efficient and cost less than somebody else that’s using a different technology.

John: And you’re saying even in your industry, which is fascinating because I never heard it said the way you just did a couple minutes ago, picking up one to 2% of efficiencies is actually a big deal. It’s actually a big deal.

Robert: Yeah. So I mean if you think about it and you think about like you know, a solar panel or something like that, for example, which you know, typical rates for solar conversion efficiency are in the 20 to 30% rate. So if you add 1% onto that, maybe not such a big deal. But when we’re talking about power supplies, we’re talking about moving from 96 to the 98% efficiency. If we’re converting megawatts of power you know, that 1 or 2% could be huge, could be a lot there.

John: Share a couple of other real world examples of like how high power density applications that white band gap semiconductors or make a difference in [inaudible]. So we could bring it to more [crosstalk].

Robert: Most people know this is an adapter. Yeah. That you would get with say your cell phone for example. So if you look at a device that this side this particular adapter can put out 65 wats. Sixty five wats is enough to charge your laptop cell phone probably right around at the same time. Now, if you remember back to maybe the first phone that you got, right? That device probably put out 5 watt and was probably bigger than that. So we’ve increased the amount of power by a factor of 13 and cut the sizes in half probably. Versus that particular device. And so this particular adapter had gallium nitride inside as well, so that’s’ allowing us to get the smaller size. So I don’t know about you, but I travel a lot and everything that I got to put into my backpack, but I got to put a different charger from my laptop. I got to put a different charger from my phone and I got to bring all these different power adapters and different electronic. With gallium nitride and reducing the size of these adapters. And then especially even if we go off on a tangent and start talking about a USB type C and how they’re standardizing the charging for all these different devices, is going to make a huge difference. So the smaller that I can make that charger, the lighter I’m making it, the more happy people are they, don’t have to carry these around. And by the way, at the same time, instead of that old brick that he had, the big one that was probably some kind of linear charger that ran at like 50% efficiency. Now these run at 95% efficiency. Down on the amount of energy that gets weight.

John: Robert, what is the future of high voltage power really look like? What’s your vision of the future?

Robert: Yeah, I think the biggest thing that people see right now is the electrification of vehicles. And it’s great. So I have an electric vehicle myself. I love it. When I get to drive it, mostly my wife is driving it, but occasionally I get to drive it. It’s a fun car to drive and you know, I think a lot of people are really interested in that. And you know, there’s something to be said, right? So we’re taking the automotive industry and really changing it from internal combustion engine to electric engine. Now that makes that particular portion of it you know, really efficient and good. But at the same time a lot of people gloss over and don’t think about, okay, well where does that electricity come from? That electricity has to come from somewhere, whether that’s a coal fire power plant. You know, a nuclear power plant or maybe you got solar panels. The big transformation, in my opinion, where the next space that we have to go is we got to figure out how to generate more clean energy, generate more of that type of sustainable power. Because if we all of a sudden in your state of number one on this list to start banning you know, gas power cars, and all of a sudden everybody in California has plug in electric cars. I don’t think there’s enough electricity out there to handle that. So the innovations and the tainted in the next 5 to 10 years, while everybody’s excited about the automotive industry, are really going to have to come on the grid side of things. And in that, in terms of power generation, in terms of smart how we handle the power all of those different types of bank [crosstalk] are going to become really important.

John: That’s really fascinating what you just brought up. You’re saying our well-meaning politicians, and this actually happened this summer, and I’m sure you’ve read about it, you’re in this industry. They came out with that edict about 2035, everything having to be no more gas cars on the road here in California, literally, right? It wasn’t 3 days later where we had a power issue here you know, in terms of power losses. Governor comes on television and says, do you have an EV car right now? Please don’t use it. Don’t charge it. Right? So meanwhile…

Robert: That people can’t drive.

John: Right? So like you should [cross talk].

Robert: Yeah what happens if we start making ambulances or police card is their fire truck, if we start turning those into EV and now we can’t charge those, and all of a sudden they can’t get to where they need to go because we’d have an insufficient hour grid. It’s a huge problem that we’re going to have to address. And I feel like companies like take the picture with, we have some technology and things that are going to be able to really transform what’s happening here right now.

John: So you’re really saying, and [inaudible] beyond California, we are using California as a fun example and as an ecosystem giving us the largest state in the nation. And also have does some funny things with regards to those kind of announcements. But truly even well-meaning politics, policy makers and other people from your perspective. We have a, and in reality is which is very reality based perspective, we have a long way to go on a national basis for our infrastructure.

Robert: Absolutely.

John: To catch up with.

Robert: No, I think every, everything has unintended consequences.

John: You’re right.

Robert: And you realize those as you start going into it. I mean, let’s look at automobiles, for example, in the gas that you put into the car. A lot of the taxes that go on that [ inaudible] go to help build roads than to build maintain the bridges and different things like that. You turn all the power electric, now you got to figure out where to get bad money from some somewhere else, right? And so that tax goes back to the power company and you know, are whatever we got to figure all of these things out. And they’re a lot of really smart people that of sure are doing that. But you know you can’t understand everything that’s going to happen until, you get there. And we got to be kind of careful with this one I think.

John: You’re one of these really smart people and so are your colleagues at Texas Instruments. Let’s talk about the future besides fixing our infrastructure issues, which are critical, what gets you out of bed in the morning you know, you’re there 20 years, Robert you know, what’s next for TI that you’re working on that you could give us a little bit of some exciting initiatives that’s coming soon. Not in 2030 or 2040, but maybe the next one or 2 years.

Robert: Sure. So yeah, I mean we keep going back to the data center and that area that’s somewhere where we’re affecting policy like right now. So you know, there’s new standards that are coming out. And because of work specifically that my team, we’re working on server data center power supplies from 1.5 to 5 kilowatts that will be deployed in the next couple of years. And those will save upwards of billions of dollars in electricity costs for the companies that deploy those servers. So that’s huge. Beyond that you know, great infrastructure and units is a big one. Battery theft. So all of these electric vehicles that we have require loads and loads of rechargeable batteries. And those batteries need to be formed. They need to be tested. And so we’re working on high voltage designs with high efficiency where we can test those batteries and help those manufacturers to form the batteries. The amount of lithium ion batteries that are going to be required for the automotive industry is in sync. And every one of those batteries, every one of those little cells has to be, tested. And so when you charge and discharge that cell, the more efficiently you can do that, the less power you have to put into that system. And so that’s the power that you put into that system is basically weight. So there’s you’re charging the battery, you’re discharging the battery to understand how that particular cell works, but that’s not delivering any value to the customer to anyone at all. So we really need to make sure that those types of systems are really efficient. Even on aircraft for example. So we’re doing a number of different designs where in the aircraft they really care about the weight. So if you have an inflight entertainment system that sits under the seat, they weigh 30 or 40 pounds, and I can replace that with something that weighs 5 pounds. An air aircraft manufacturers are really excited about that. And I don’t know about you, but I don’t like picking that little box that’s under the seat in front of me. So what if I can make that box smaller, if I can make it lighter and I can make it better for the aircraft manufacturer, and then that makes you know, it better for the consumers. You know, just a couple examples.

John: Hey how many people work underneath you on this team, working on these very innovative initiatives?

Robert: Yeah, so I have I have a team of 16 engineers that works for me. And pretty, my counterpart. So I cover the industrial space. So we’re doing everything from AVI military application to medical, the grid structure, the power delivery all of those types of things. And then [inaudible] team is covering the automotive industry. And so we have a similar number of people. So in total we have about 30 engineers that are spread globally. So most of my team is here in the Dallas area in Texas. But we also have a team in China, and we have a team in Germany as well.

John: Hold on.

Robert: So we’re really well positioned to handle customers globally. We see a lot of different innovations and we’re able to take our knowledge and our technology to help customers solve those problems. [cross Talk] that’s probably what gets me out of bed in the morning. I would say. [cross Talk]. It’s really invigorating and rewarding to walk in the best buy or walk into a store and see something on the shelf and be like, yeah I help to make that.

John: Or to see the new grid continue to expand with more charging stations and more EVs on the road.

Robert: Definitely.

John: And you’re part of that whole ecosystem.

Robert: Yeah, definitely. It’s definitely a huge responsibility, I would say. And also you know, very rewarding. It’s’ something failed with the grid failed, like, I’m not on the line, but at the same time you feel responsible if there’s something that you could do to impact that and it doesn’t happen.

John: That’s true. Well, we’ll, just like for with Pradeep, we’re so thankful for you spending time with us today. Robert, we thank you and your colleagues for all the important work you’re doing at Texas in Instruments. For our listeners and viewers to find Robert and his colleagues and Perdeep and all the great work that they’re doing, you can just go to www.ti.com. Robert, you and Texas Instruments are making the world a better place. We’re thankful for your time today. Thanks for making the great impacts that you’re making and helping us become more energy efficient planet. And you’re always welcome back on The Impact podcast,

Robert: John I really appreciate it. This was a lot of fun, so thanks for having me.

John: This episode of the Impact Podcast is brought to you by Closed Loop Partners. Closed Loop Partners is a leading circular economy investor in the United States with an extensive network of Fortune 500 corporate investors, family offices, institutional investors, industry experts and impact partners. Close loops platform spans the arc of capital, from venture capital to private equity bridging gaps and fostering synergies. To scale the circular economy, the fine close loop partners, please go to www.closelooppartners.com. This edition of the Impact podcast is brought to you by ERI. ERI has a mission to protect people, the planet and your privacy, and is the largest fully integrated IT and electronics asset disposition provider and cybersecurity focused hardware destruction company in the United States and maybe even the world. For more information on how ERI can help your business properly dispose of outdated electronic hardware devices, please visit ERIdirect.com.

John Shegerian: Get the latest Impact Podcast right into your inbox each week. Subscribe by entering your email address at impactpodcast.com to make sure you never miss an interview.

John: This edition of the Impact Podcast is brought to you by ERI. ERI has a mission to protect people, the planet, and your privacy; and is the largest fully integrated IT and electronics asset disposition provider and cybersecurity focused hardware destruction company in the United States, and maybe even the world. For more information on how ERI can help your business properly dispose of outdated electronic hardware devices, please visit eridirect.com.

John: This episode of the Impact Podcast is brought to you by Closed Loop Partners. Closed Loop Partners is a leading circular economy investor in the United States, with an extensive network of Fortune 500 corporate investors, family offices, institutional investors, industry experts, and impact partners. Closed Loop’s platform spans the Arc of Capital from Venture Capital to private equity, bridging gaps and fostering synergies to scale the circular economy. To find Closed Loop Partners please go to www.closedlooppartners.com.

John: Welcome to another Edition in this wonderful New Year of 2023. We’ve got with us today, Liz Kleinrock. She’s an educator, author, and consultant, and she also runs Teach and Transform, welcome to the impact podcast, Liz Kleinrock.

Liz Kleinrock: Thank you so much, John. It’s wonderful to be here talking with you today.

John: Liz, thanks for making the time. I know the beginning of any new year can always be hectic and busy and we were trying to put this together later last year. And well, both our schedules just didn’t align. So thanks for making time today for us.

Liz: It’s wonderful. Thank you so much. I’m glad we were able to look back and make this happen.

John: Yeah, I’ve had all the honor and the blessing of learning more about you, both of my studies about you, and also listening to you on different podcasts, and watching you on your TED talks. But for our listeners and viewers who are just exposed to you for the first time, share a little bit about your fascinating background so they can learn more about you as well before we get into talking about all the important and great work you’re doing at Teach and Transform.

Liz: Thank you. The first thing you should know, I kind of joke about this but if I just listened to identifiers, it’s definitely a mouthful. So I am a trans racially adopted Jewish queer Korean American woman. I was born in South Korea. I grew up in a Jewish Ashkenazi family here in DC, and I have been involved in education and a lot of different capacities over the past 13 years or so. I have been a classroom teacher. I have taught K through 6 grades. I have been in the Office of Equity and Inclusion at two different schools. I have also been an elementary school librarian. As of May 2021, I’m also a published author for adults. And as of this fall, I’ll also be a published author for kids, and I do a lot of consulting work around anti-bias and anti-racism for schools of all different sorts, for companies, and nonprofits. I’ve worked with religious organizations. It’s really hard to describe what I do in one sound bite. I definitely do not have it down to a cystic elevator pitch quite yet.

John: All the identifiers that you’ve shared were great, but isn’t there a new one too? Aren’t you also married as well?

Liz: Yes, I am also, as of October of 2022, I am married. My husband was born in Mexico. He’s a chef here in DC. And we are young and just very happy in this like post-wedding period of our lives. It’s been great.

John: Honestly, given that I’m much older than you and I’ve been married now, almost 40 years. I have to tell you, Liz. That’s one of the greatest and most fun periods of anybody’s life when they marry the right person, so, first of all, congratulations on your new marriage. And second of all, just enjoy that period as long as possible, as long as you can make it, that post. And then if you’re lucky maybe a lot of 40 Years of post. Scary periods like I’ve had.

So I think that’s wonderful. And as you shared with me, some of the books behind you, are at on some of the topics that we’re going to be covering today such as anti-bias and anti racist teachings that you do, but they’re on food because your husband is a chef.

Liz: Yes. We have a very extensive cookbook collection and the ones behind me are just part of the collection. If you could see forward, there would be a lot more.

John: So if you were going out. I know you live in DC, Almond Fresno today in my head office is, if you and your husband were going out tonight for a romantic dinner, where would you go out in DC tonight? What’s one of your favorite? I know they can never be one. But what’s one of your favorite restaurants together?

Liz: That’s a good question. It’s so hard to choose. A South Asian inspired restaurant called Daru opened here. I think early last year or maybe the year before, that’s owned and operated by a friend of my husband. The food is phenomenal. There are two Korean restaurants in DC, also owned and operated by a friend of ours, Danny Lee, he owns Anju and Mandu. Trust me they’re the only and awesome best Korean food in DC proper. And our friend Nat Adler, also opens up like a traditional red sauce Italian restaurant called Caruso’s Grocery at the barracks neighborhood of DC and we like that one a lot too.

John: Now, I’m hungry. They all sound good.

Liz: I’m hungry too.

John: Well, that’s sound so wonderful and again, congratulations. So let’s get talking today about Teach and Transforming and all your important work and, first of all, for our listeners and viewers want to find Liz and all the important work she’s doing, you can go to teachandtransform.org. Liz, how did you even came over? Your parents adopted you when you were, how old?

Liz: I was about six months old when I came to the states.

John: Six months old and they adopted you. Were you raised in DC area?

Liz: Yup, DC proper.

John: Wow, that’s great. And so, you gave out those identifiers a little while ago and, ethnically speaking, you look Korean but you were raised by a Jewish Family. Were you as comfortable as with Chuseok as you are at Hanukkah? Is that how this works?

Liz: I’m getting there with a comfort around Chuseok and other Korean holidays because they weren’t something that I grew up with. Honestly, the only other Korean people I saw in our neighborhood growing up operated the dry cleaners, a couple of blocks away.

John: Really?

Liz: And there were some Asian students that migrated. I went to the same school from pre-kindergarten through twelfth grade, handful of Asian students and I think more South Asian than East Asian. But DC is not known for being a hub for the Asian Community, certainly communities at Virginia- very close by. Annandale and Arlington have a much higher Asian population but in DC, it’s known as being historically a black city. So thinking about what it means to grow up as a very visible Asian-American person in a white presenting family and a very white neighborhood of a historically black community has definitely impacted my own understanding of identity growing up. As well as the work that I do, why I care so much about this.

John: Were there other children in your family when you were growing up or were you an only child?

Liz: I’m an only child. My mom has two sisters and my dad has two brothers. And there were other extended family members in the DC area growing up. And so I spent a lot of time with cousins but just in my house. It’s just me.

John: So they were Ashkenazi Jews, so your mom and dad are still alive I take it?

Liz: I get to see them now every week or two, which is really nice. I moved back from California about two years ago. It was definitely a pandemic move but I had been in Oakland for about 10 years.

John: You were on the West Coast for quite some time? I’ve been meaning to talk about that for a little while so I want to talk about that. Let’s go back then. So you were raised mostly in the Jewish faith with the Jewish traditions, and everything else, all wonderful things that come with that, and being a native New Yorker, I get to know those things as well. So many of my friends were Jewish. When were you that exposed to Korea? Have you ever met your birth parents or family? And How has the exposure been to South Korea at all in your young life?

Liz: Growing up, it was really limited. I think there were one or two Korean kids in my grade at school. I wasn’t super close with them. I think my first kind of push when it comes to exposure is an internship I had in my senior year of high school. What I thought for a very fleeting moment, “Oh, maybe I’ll try pre-med in college.” That was very short-lived. But when I had my internship at Walter Reed Army Medical Hospital here in the DC area, I was in an office where one of my co-workers, actually three of my co-workers were Korean and was able to just learn a little bit more. I think it was actually the most proximity I’ve ever had with Korean people in a regular basis. And it wasn’t until Senior High School. And from there when I was in college, that’s, I think, where a lot more of the exploration with my identity started. I decided to, I suppose, compensate in some way for the lack of education in understanding I had had growing up. I decided to be an East Asian Studies major. I took at least three full years of Korean language classes. I had my first Korean boyfriend. I tried to hang out a lot with the Korean International students. And I even had my first internship in Korea between my Junior and Senior year of college. So I consider college to be a lot of like me, trying to catch myself up.

John: Sure.

Liz: And it’s certainly not lost on me that if I hadn’t done that only personal investigation and that self worth, it probably wouldn’t have happened.

John: Right. How was your first experience in Korea?

Liz: It was pretty nuts. I remember just thinking how it’s so different to be in a place where I don’t stand out.

John: Right.

Liz: Where in the United States preaches so much about uniqueness and individuality, and you want to stand out. I think, in so many ways, we do and I still do. And there is still something very comforting about being around people who look like you, who share a certain affinity.

John: Right.

Liz: So that was something that I had never experienced until I was about 20 years old. And certainly there were a number of people in my life, both peers and co-workers, I had when I was doing my internship in Korea who were very accepting, warm, and welcoming. And there are always going to be people who are going to say you’re not enough, even though you look like us, you aren’t raised the same way, you don’t understand certain cultural norms, you’re not fluent in the language. Unfortunately, my my college boyfriend ended up in that latter camp, which was very unfortunate.

John: Yeah.

Liz: It was still a good learning experience for me. And I think even going through some of those really uncomfortable situations with people have cemented it even more like my own desire to know who I am and to know that I do belong. Even if other people think that I don’t.

John: That’s right, that’s right. Have you been back since?

Liz: Yeah. Actually, we spent part of our honeymoon in Korea. So we got married at the beginning of October, and then literally a day and a half later we’re on a plane to Korea.

John: No, what?

Liz: Yeah, the first six day is where actually a program that I had applied to and gotten into the Overseas Korea Foundation. And they had opened up this program to 150 Korean adoptees from 15 different countries around the world. And we were all allowed to bring a plus one. So if there are any International Korean adoptees listening and watching this, you can check out Okay Ave[?] Air Korean adoptee program. You’ll have your airfare, your lodging, and your food covered for a six days. You get to meet adoptees from all over the world. And you get to bring a plus one who’s also paid for. So my husband got to come for free too, which was amazing and he’d never been before. It was just a really wonderful experience to be able to share with him, especially as part of our honeymoon.

John: Did he love it? Was it the greatest?

Liz: He loved it. And I’ll be back there next summer also. So I’m really happy to know that I’ll be returning soon because the last time I was there for college was in 2008. It’s been a while.

John: Right. Will you go there on business? Or is that a pleasure trip when you go there?

Liz: It’s kind of both. Next summer, the chores part will be about 10 days with an organization called Asia families. And they also do a lot to support families with adopted Korean children, as well as adult adoptees. So it’ll be really nice to be in another adoptee Community.

John: That’s so nice. One of the nicest and most impactful movies that I watched in the last couple years is a movie called Found. I don’t know if you’ve seen it but it was based on Chinese children who were adopted in United States.

Liz: And so is it about the twins?

John: I don’t know if twins in particular, it might have been in one of the story lines, but it was children who are adopted from China. The parents unfortunately had to give up the children. And they wanted to go back and they went back with the documentary team with professionals helping them in trying to find their their birth parents.

Liz: Wow.

John: With their parents in America. It was unbelievably moving and it was from 2021. I highly recommend it to anybody who has a heart and has a soul and wants of watch just things that were not all necessarily exposed to. So Teach and Transform, and for our listeners and viewers to see what Liz is up to and all their important and impactful work, you can go to teachandtransfom.org.

Liz, what informed you as a child or where along when you’re growing up? Did something inform you that when you became older and had a world of opportunities to go and do other things, even though medical you already had decided wasn’t going to be part of your future, why did you decide to start teaching our youngest and most tender minds in America about the misunderstandings that are surrounding the very tough topics, maybe even taboo topics of anti-bias and anti-racism? How did you come up with such a specific Mission and great calling?

Liz: That’s a good question. And I have to be totally honest, I don’t think it was intentional but also not.

John: Yeah.

Liz: When I talk to students about career idea and I learned a lot about them instead of asking kids, “What do you want to be when you grow up?, “Think about what problem do you want to help solve when you grow up?” But that framework was definitely not presented to me when I was a kid. I think if you would ask my parents, my dad somewhere has a list of jobs I said I wanted. I think I wrote this list on a piece of paper when I was like 11 or 12. And there are things on there like, “I want to be like the next Mia Hamm”, “I want to be a professional flute player for the national Symphony Orchestra”, “I want to be a photojournalist.” All of these things that are so far from what I’m actually doing right now. But I think growing up, I just had this idea that a job and a career had to be some sort of structured 9 to 5, where you go to an office building and you have a boss. But I don’t really think kids these days are really, well, trained is the right word, but are encouraged to think about how you could try to create your own job based on a need that you see happening in the world, right in your community. But when I graduated from college with my VA and East Asian studies, I graduated in 2009. So, pretty much Peak recession. Not a great time to enter the job market.

John: Right.

Liz: I had applied to a couple of jobs through them there because it was really hard to find anything. And in my junior or senior year of college, I had started volunteering with local public schools. I had done tutoring, like after-school art programs, and I just really loved working with students. I really came down to this job with the international Refugee committee, and a job teaching in Oakland. They’re both in the Bay Area and I chose the the teaching path and thought, “I’ll try this on and if I hate it, I’ll just try something else.” But it stuck, and I’ve loved it and it’s pushed me in so many different ways. And I feel like those paths of having some really strong amazing mentors, working with some really incredible students, who really have opened my eyes to so many things that I was just not privy to growing up, has led me down this path where the more I’m able to try to engage young people with topics and conversations that are not traditionally covered in school. I personally found that I had the most success when teaching in that way. And then when a lot of the work that I was doing with kids had gained a lot of attention from other educators through social media and schools asking about training or professional developments. I think, I was and still am in many ways of dealing with imposter syndrome but it was never something that I intended to go out and write books about or wanting to teach other people. I just wanted to be a good teacher for my students. And I’m grateful that I have had a lot of friends, colleagues, and mentors who have fostered what I’m doing, and have encouraged me to go out and share it, because I don’t think that’s something that I would have done on my own. I didn’t think I was confident enough. Everything feels fairly serendipitous too. It showed me that I have made good decisions and it showed me that I am pursuing something that I’m passionate about, and that has yielded really positive results from me. But I can’t say that I set out with a particular course that I was trying to navigate through certain years of my life.

John: I’ve been a serial entrepreneur, social entrepreneur, most of my adult life. And when you look back on your own life, and you’re very young, but still looking back is always a good exercise for all of us as we try to make better and good decisions as we move forward. You sort of wonder, “How do I end up here?” And my mother was a social worker and my father was a serial entrepreneur. So that’s not a hard one. A social worker and serial entrepreneur together creates a, I guess, a serial social entrepreneur. For you, when you were growing up, did you go to public schools?

Liz: No, I went to an independent school from pre-k to 12th grade. Same school.

John: And how was your experience with regards to the diversity in that school, and how the other kids and also teachers treated you?

Liz: Well, because I was going to school mainly in like the 90s that early to mid-2000s, I think it was still very much this race evasive mentality, where you’re taught not to talk about people’s differences. Or like, say, “I don’t notice race”, “I don’t pay attention to that” and I think that’s what you were supposed to do. I would say that diversity at my school was pretty surface level. Kind of like on an admissions brochure kind of way, where if you open up this pamphlet, you’ll see kids who look different from each other. But when it came down to it, a lot of it was fairly homogenous. And I think talking to friends now in adulthood, friends who came from financially under resource backgrounds, that was a really big challenge for them to navigate this institution that was full of such wealth and privilege. When it came to political mentalities, granted it was like a very liberal progressive environment and that is how I identify. And I still think I could have benefited from teachers and peers, who pushed me to think a little bit differently. I didn’t meet a republican my age until college because I went to school in St. Louis Missouri. So, when you’re in the Midwest, you’re going to come across people from like a lot of different backgrounds. And having conversations with friends I made from places like Arkansas, Iowa, and Arizona, really pushed me and really taught me that like, “Oh wow, I think that I have this like steel proof opinion or argument.” And I really don’t at all because I’ve just been preaching to the choir for most of my life. I’ve never really been pushed to critically engaged with other people.

John: That is so interesting, and like you said, it was like one of those pro forma United Nations type of look on how everyone look. Was there a lot of discussion?

Liz: Yeah, I think the joke my friends and I would say is that we look like a Benetton ad.

John: I was going to say, “Oh Liz doesn’t know Benetton.” But I’m glad you said it. You’re right. What was it called, United Colors of Benetton or something back then, right?

Liz: Yup.

John: What did mom and dad do, by the way?

Liz: My dad is an architect. He says he’s going to retire but that still has not happened yet. And my mother is an epidemiologist and she retired in January 2020. So her retirement did not start out the way that she thought it was going to.

John: Wow, she retired in one respect, you could say at the perfect moment and what, who’s making you say, it’s a non perfect moment. So you must have a lot of fascinating discussions with her about what really just happened, and what’s going to happen in the future with regards to Covid and other potential pandemics?

Liz: Yeah, I mean for one thing I think that’s the first time a lot of people realize that her job even existed, like, “I could have been an epidemiologist before.” that’s all we’re talking about. I think she wanted to do spend time with friends, travel, and get involved in community organizations. And because when the pandemic hit, she wasn’t able to do any of that. So I feel like now and a little last year is when she’s been able to explore that a little bit more. She started taking piano lessons on Zoom, which I think is really cool.

John: That’s really great. That is so sweet. And that just goes to show you that people could stay relevant their whole lives. People who were curious, life Learners, that’s such a great way to be in life. And they say those are the people that have actually longest and the best lives anyway.

Liz: Yeah, I think my parents really modeled that all idea of lifelong learning, like my dad is a professional artist. He’s an architect, he’s had many shows about his paintings, he goes printmaking, he builds furniture but he still takes art classes here in DC. My mom is taking music classes. My dad actually encouraged me last year when I was really stressed out. He said, “You need to do something that exercises the other part of your brain that isn’t being used for work.” So I started taking Ceramics about five months ago, and I really love it. And I start up again next week, actually, and that’s a great.

John: That’s so nice, good for you and good for your parents. What great role models. Talk a little bit about the primary mission of Teach and Transform. You and I are in an elevator now. We’re on the ground floor, we’re going to the 60th floor together, and I say, “So Liz, what do you do?” And you tell me, “I run the Teach and Transform, I created Teach and Transform.” And I say, “What is that?”

Liz: Well, I’d also say, “It’s just me.” It is an organization that one day, I hope to be able to grow that focuses on increasing equity and inclusion through anti-bias and anti-racism practices. We try to respond to the uniqueness of every community because there is no one-size-fits-all when it comes to anti-bias and anti-racism work. That looks like in some ways like audits of what’s happening in a community or in a workplace. It’s thinking about particular sessions or professional development on specific topics. Or working really long term in thinking about how we can shift culture within an institution to try to make it as welcoming as possible, and also trying to mitigate harm for others as much as possible.

John: And the children that you teach are mostly 1st to 4th graders?

Liz: I taught K through 6. Most of my experience has been teaching upper Elementary. I’ve spent the most time in second, third, and fourth grades. Middle School was was short but I really enjoyed teaching middle school. It’s a good age group.

John: And why do you feel it’s important? Why is that a great age to be reaching them on these critical, and like you said before in other talks you’ve given another literature that I’ve read, sometimes tough, sometimes taboo topics of anti-bias, anti-racism and things. Why is that the right age group for you to be touching them and informing them?

Liz: I think especially around third, fourth, and fifth grade, from my experience working with youth, I find that kids around that age are really able to start exploring abstract topics, which is really nice and they’re still a little egocentric, but they are certainly developing this understanding that they’re part of something a lot bigger than they are. When I work with adults, I talked a lot about this process of learning and unlearning. I think the unlearning is often harder and it’s often a more necessary. When we think about everything that we’ve been exposed to throughout the course of our Lives. How those experiences and relationships impact the biases that we have and how we treat other people. And with the younger kids there is certainly the unlearning that needs to occur but there’s still a lot less of it than there is than working with somebody who’s like my age or like my parents age. Kids are just really curious. I think that they often don’t have a lot of the shame or hesitancy that were socially conditioned to fall into when it comes to topics around identity, things that are deemed too political, or things that we’ve seen other people, maybe respond in a negative way to. Kids are just curious. I always will say that kids are exposed to the exact same things that adults are exposed to, but we don’t give them any context or any tools for guidance on how to navigate these topics or conversations. If you have the radio or a podcast on in the car and you’re driving your kid home from school, your kid is still listening. They might be picking up bits and pieces of it, but it’s important to contextualize it. If you’re having a discussion about politics around the dinner table, your kid is still listening to that too. You actually have no idea what they’re picking up on, what they’re making sense, out of what questions they might have. And I think being able to have these spaces that are structured that invites children in to ask questions and try to figure out, “How do I ask this in a respectful way?”, “How can I ask something without an enormous amount of judgment?” or “If I hear to something that’s really harmful to other people, is there anything that I can do about it?” And I’ve noticed that with kids who tend to be a little less interested with the more traditional subjects in school, when you start talking about current social issues, they are engaged in a way that they never are when it comes to like a very traditional. Like math lesson or reading or writing lesson. I think they just had this layer of complexity and interest to what we’re doing.

John: Your Ted Talk was very powerful but what I thought you did so brilliantly, was at the end. You amalgamated the commentary feedback from your students. And you showed a sign that the end of your Ted Talk that I believe said something close to, “If I’m off, please, correct me.” We could think the same way you do.

Liz: I remember that. Lucy? She’s in high school now. It’s so weird.

John: That’s very powerful stuff. Talk a little bit about why you wanted to stick the landing of your Ted Talk with that thought and that commentary, and leave your audience and viewers with that important message.

Liz: Because I knew my audience was going to be predominately adults and even though, yes, kids are younger, it doesn’t mean that we have to intentionally infantilize them in certain ways. It doesn’t mean that we have to talk down to them because kids notice that and they don’t respond well to it. They like being patronized as much as an adult would probably like it. And I think we tend to forget, as adults, what it was like to be a kid. It’s not like our consciousness shuts off at a certain time, and we get reprogrammed with adult thinking. We’re the same person. We evolved over time and truly for a lot of people who say like, “Oh, you know, this is, It’s too advanced, it’s too complex. We should just let kids be kids.” Okay, at what age then, would you like to flip the switch on and say, great, you’re going to be a critically engaged person in our society. You’re going to be an active citizen. At what age is that supposed to happen? As we know in schooling, when things are presented through a lens that combines a lot of different topics and issues rather than just presenting an idea in isolation, it’s going to stick a lot more. And so what I really love to do in my teaching is thinking about how can I do what I need to do as an educator? I still need to teach things like, Reading, Writing, Math, and Science. Absolutely. But instead take this lens that through I’m which I’m teaching these subjects, I’m still hitting my standards, my learning objectives with kids. But I’m being really intentional about the text that we read, the questions that I asked, or the ways that I ask kids to communicate or collaborate with one another. How I asked them to express their learning rather than just standing in the front of the room talking at them, telling them what to think. I know int my big piece and that talk also was, we’re not trying to teach kids what to think, we’re trying to teach kids how to thin. I know that I should leave these days because schools and libraries have been under so many attacks from people who paid to say, “We’re indoctrinating kids.” I think for many educators out there who are really committed to their students, you’re not going to be standing at the front telling your kids, “This is what I think. So, I’m just going to fill your head with all of these ideas.” Because even during presidential elections, if my kids ask me, “Who are you voting for?” They might be able to figure it out, but I’m never going to tell them who I’m voting for. Even when I’ve had students who have been really intense Trump supporters, and my class not shutting them down, not shaming them, pushing their thinking and asking for explanations as to why you might say a certain thing or believe a certain thing, but it’s really about trying to make sure that they can back up what they’re saying. If they have a different opinion from the pier, how can you express it in a way that doesn’t cause harm to another person too.

John: Now for our listeners and viewers who just joined us. We’ve got Liz Kleinrock with us today. She’s an educator, author, consultant, and much more. She’s the founder of Teach and Transform. You could find Liz and her important work at teachandtransform.org. Liz when I was growing up many years ago, and I was in grade school at PS 94 Queens, New York. There was no Liz Kleinrock. How was the acceptance bin of your work as a teacher, as an educator, by the other educators that are teaching children at your school as well?

Liz: I would say that it’s been far more positive than negative. There are always going to be people who don’t see why it’s important or maybe the content makes them uncomfortable. So therefore, they don’t want to do it with their students. But I do think that especially since the Resurgence of Black Lives Matter protests, that happened to the spring and summer of 2020. That there is an increased understanding that this is something that is necessary, that we need to really grapple with. I think a lot of it, disagreements, just come from people not being on the same page of how those issues are supposed to be dealt with. Like what is the best course of action here. I think that there is a lot of curiosity. There’s a lot of desire to do the right thing, and unfortunately, I still think that there’s a lot of fear surrounding it too. Or people don’t know what to do. They’re afraid of making mistakes or messing up, which is a very natural part of any sort of growth or learning process. But the stakes are really high so it makes people uncomfortable and I understand that. What I really tried to get it in my work is acknowledging the discomfort that many people feel and also not letting that be an excuse for folks to opt out.

John: You brought up Black Lives Matter and the protests during the pandemic. Has teaching these important but tender subjects, pre Covid and post Covid, changed in terms of level of Engagement, topic matter, and level of interest level, from the children themselves?

Liz: I think that students now are coming in with a lot more background knowledge and understanding that they were pre Covid. Kids would often start with being able to engage in class if they had a personal experience, if their identity connected to one of the topics we were discussing, if their parents talked about this at home. These days, it seems like kids have a lot more exposure to conversations and issues around social justice topics. Where I find that kids know more and more coming in, which is really nice. In that way, you don’t always have to start from square one. And there are still kids who come in with very little background knowledge. So, in some ways, it’s also hard because the gap in understanding is also very large too. Because kids who come in knowing a lot want to continue in pushing their own learning and understanding and other kids need a lot more support of understanding, like the basic concepts. I think that there is a lot more intentionality with schools to recognize that schools will always call like a DEI, Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion work because a lot of schools I think are too scared to actually say, we’re focusing on racial justice or anti-racism. They don’t actually wanted name the word “race.” But if you go into like any school’s webpage these days, you’re going to find a DEI section of the web page. Which is something that I don’t think really happened as much pre Covid.

John: Interesting, and by the way I’d be remiss if I didn’t share with our listeners and viewers, Liz is not only teachandtransform.org but she’s also a great author. This very important book is a great book “Start Here, Start Now,” which is great. Liz, why did you write this book? And what’s your intention with this book? For our listeners and viewers who are interested in bringing more of what you’re teaching to their Community.

Liz: I really have my Instagram and social media community to thank for how this book came out. I started my Instagram, also my handle is @teachandtransform in 2015 maybe. It was really because I was sharing all of this work that I was doing with students on my personal Facebook and Instagram account and just figured, “Wow, like I bet a lot of people on here don’t actually care about teaching.” I would really like to try to create some sort of portfolio or maybe I can be connected with other like-minded educators.  So I made this other account and started posting more examples of work. Pretty much everything that I post on my social media is something that’s been originally created. So I was sharing lesson plans, examples of student work, and anchor charts that we were making. And I got more and more questions from teachers about like, “I want to be doing this to, where do I start like, what can you recommend?” And so when I had this opportunity to write this book with my publisher, and just figuring out that it’s a really big topic. What should be included? I asked folks on my Instagram, “Hey, if you’re a teacher out there and you want to be doing this type of work but you’re not, why are you not?” And I had a couple hundred people respond to it. And based on those responses, I sorted them into themes. Those themes became the focus for each chapter of the book. At first, it was supposed to be framed around on how you overcome these barriers, but throughout the writing and editing process, I talked to my editor, “Wow, this actually seems like too negative. This is not just focusing on like the issues that we think prevent us from doing in this. But rather, how could we set ourselves up for success? How can we be proactive?” So there are chapters about how to set yourself up for success when working with your school administration. If you think your principal’s not into this, or if you’re worried about parents and caregivers pushing back, what can you do? Or if you feel like you just don’t have enough time in your school day, like most of us do. What can you then do to try to work these things into the subjects you’re already teaching. My two favorite chapters, one is making space for difficult conversations in your classroom because that is something that came up a lot. “I’m afraid a kid’s going to say something racist and I’m not going to know how to respond to it or I get a nasty question, I don’t know how to react.” And then also having a chapter of focusing on students that are white. Because I’ve heard from a lot of schools, especially in very racially homogeneous areas, there’s not a lot of interest for this work because we’re an all white community are almost all-white Community. People just don’t feel the need for this or are super worried about hurting white children’s feelings. So taking a lot of those very common themes, I wanted to create this book based on successes I’ve had in my own professional journey, as well as interviews with other educators who have taught in different schools and locations. It’s meant to be very hands on. It’s meant to be very applicable. I wanted teachers, who pick it up to be able to implement something tomorrow if they wanted to.

John: And how has the response been, since you wrote it?

Liz: It’s been really good. I was really scared because it’s essentially like the first ten years of my teaching, career wrapped up into a book, and that can be really scary and very vulnerable to put yourself out there in that way. And also knowing that the activism community can be very harsh too. If you write something and someone decides the wording is undesirable or problematic, that’s it. You don’t know how people are going to respond to it so I’m glad that the reception has been really positive and I’m super grateful for that too.

John: It’s actually almost a little bit of what your dad does. Art is the same way. You create art, and book is art . It’s really artistic in many ways. Writing is a form of art, and you don’t know what the response is going to be but you put it out there and with all the best intentions and you hope the reception is gonna be well. But obviously Liz, I’m on your Instagram site. Now you have 170 thousand followers. Obviously what you’re doing has resonated massively. I said this to you off the air, and one of the reasons why I wanted to have you on the show was I know I don’t have the ability, we don’t have the ability yet in society but maybe one day we will, of cloning people. As a business person, you want to have the next big thing but you don’t want to be too early. You don’t want to be Myspace, you want to be Facebook. And it seems as though you’ve really, like you said, “Part serendipity,” and anyone who’s successful who doesn’t give luck its due is not being frank with themselves. And you right up front said, “Part serendipity,” but it seems to me that these issues that you’re covering are now getting more media attention than never before. When I was a child or young man, were these kind of issues covered in the media with regards to, what the ex-president said, or what Harvey Weinstein or Bill Cosby’s done, or some of the most recent comedians that take their art and take it into a way that has become controversial, not to say it’s not art but somewhat controversial and raise these topics. So it seems as though you making sense of these very important issues and sharing them and teaching our youngest and most open and tender Minds about them, the timing couldn’t be better as a society goes.

Liz: Thank you. I wish it wasn’t so needed.

John: I know. That’s true too but since it is, thank God there is you and what you’re doing. And again for those who want to “Start Here, And Start Now”, Liz Kleinrock’s book ,is the 10 year compendium of all of her information, teaching her first 10 years. But you brought up social media and we talked about your Instagram a little bit, talk a little bit about out though, the challenges that I didn’t have to deal with as a child, you’re now teaching these young and impressionable minds. But they’re also now only exposed to what mom and dad say, and their friends say, and the media says, but they’re also subjected to this new and numerous platforms of social media. TikTok, Instagram, Facebook, Snapchat, the list goes on. How does that make your job more challenging or easier so to speak? Because they’ve already been exposed in their open to learn more about these very interesting but strange topics.

Liz: I think the exposure can be such a beautiful thing. I think a lot about my queer students, especially my trans and non-binary students, that there are such incredible queer communities that can be found online and if you feel like you are the only person of a certain identity where you live or where you go to school, being connected on social media makes you feel far less alone. It could be really validating if you’re struggling in that way. It also means that unfortunately students and children are exposed to lot more misinformation, but so our adults. And I think what we see now is this really need for very explicit critical media literacy, teaching, and instruction in schools that unfortunately all of us of our generations and above completely missed. It just didn’t exist and it’s really hard to educate children about something that you don’t know and something that you haven’t experienced before. It means that I’ve done a lot more lessons about what does it mean to have a digital footprint? The stuff that you post on Instagram or TikTok when you’re 13 years old, might sound really funny. But you know, when you’re 24 and searching for a job, is it still going to be as funny? How’s that going to age? Understanding that what you write on the internet actually lives forever because the kids typically do not have a great sense of time or concept of what “forever” actually means.

John: About when you’re 17 applying to college?

Liz: Yeah, that’s a whole other thing. “You used to do that ,ew?” And using those is an example for kids because that is a little bit more immediate and tangible. It means that we’ve had a lot more explicit conversations about trying to determine sources when it comes to information. Like, how do you check the source for bias? What are ways that you can spot misinformation too? So unfortunately, something that our former president did was popularized this term “fake news”, where I’ve heard students kind of throw it around jokingly. I’ve heard them use it in more serious ways like, “Oh wow,” that’s just something that also people now tend to say when presented with a piece of information they don’t like. So how do we have conversations around that as well? It’s really complex. Also, knowing the packaging of social media messages, you have what a 30-second reel or like a tiny Instagram square post, or like a certain character count on the tweet. It can be really hard for not just kids but anyone to understand that because the workaround anti-bias and anti-racism is really complex. And not everything can fit into a reel. Not everything can fit into this perfect little sound bite. So sometimes I see very complex topics being watered down a lot to fit into that packaging size. I would say, one other plus thing though is, because I do operate mainly on Instagram and social media and I’m used to these little bite sized chunks of information, is that I know that I’m getting even better at breaking down complex topics into smaller pieces, which can be more easily digestible for kids. So that’s certainly one thing that that’s been positive coming out of it but it’s hard. And as my partner and I think about starting our own family, navigating devices, and social medias. It’s all very new. We’ll probably just figure it out as we go along.

John: Talk about ant-bias and anti-racism. What is one of the most common misunderstandings that are out there that you try to help, teach, and rectify in the classroom?

Liz: There’s so many things. I think the people seem to understand that this work is uncomfortable. What I think a lot of people don’t think about often enough is that how the discomfort is so necessary. And a lot of the lessons that I do at kids, I’ll ask them to think about a time where maybe they learned a new skill like, you learn how to ride a bike or you learn how to swim. Chances are, you’re going to swallow some water, you’re gonna cough, and splutter a bit. You’re going to fall off your bike and get some scraped knees. And those are necessary parts of the learning process. No one just hops on a bike and gets it right the very first time but don’t shy away or back away when you have those moments of discomfort. I think it’s also important for folks to know that this work is nonlinear. It’s not like there’s a curriculum or something for scripted exercise, where everyone starts at the same starting line and we end at the finish line, and then it’s done. That’s not how this works at all. Because a lot of folks I worked with in schools, some who are more resistant will say, “Well, I’ll do it for like the PD but like when I go home like I have no interest in this, at all.” And I think that can be really challenging if you think that this work is only supposed to exist between 9 and 5. It’s not going to go well. And I think if you switch any other identity, if you are a white woman and you decide, “This work makes me uncomfortable, I will do it at work but I don’t care about it in any aspect of my life.” How would you then respond if a man said, “Well, I’ll I could think about gender equality and sexism at work because I have to, but I don’t care about it in my personal relationships or on the weekend or anything.” It probably wouldn’t stick very well. I think a lot of folks will say it’s just for adults. We’ve talked about that a bit. I think a lot of workplaces often get this wrong where they’ll say, “Well, we have a department or an office of DEI. We have a director or officer of DEI so we’re good.” But if the work only lives within one person in your organization, if that person leaves, then you’ve done nothing pretty much. It’s really about thinking about building long-term capacity. It’s about shifting culture where everyone is involved. We’re not just saying it’s this one person’s job or responsibility, and also that it exists in every single field. I have still been toying with this podcast idea. I really want to spend some time talking to people in lots of different fields to show how racism and bias shows up in every single career path. I found articles about racism in the lives of Coroner’s, like people who deal with, you know, quirks and has experienced racism or Reese’s biases towards like the people who are recently deceased. It exists. One of my friend is really involved with a dog rescue community. Then she talks about racism that occurs there, as well. It’s everywhere. It permeates everything. It’s not just school, it’s not just politics. It is, it’s everywhere.

John: Well, you brought it up. So let’s talk about that issue. The media has covered more unprovoked attacks on the Asian community in the most recent years. It’s even say since Covid more than ever before, at least it’s been covered. What do you prescribe to this rise in unprovoked, horrific, and tragic attacks that have been on the Asian community? And frankly, speaking mostly woman who are attacked by men. What do you see or when you’re connecting dots or thinking about these very big and important topics, where is this coming from? And where are we going?

Liz: Good question. I know that there were many who had knee-jerk reactions and said, “Oh, it’s because our former president was saying, like all these like, you know, racist slurs and, you know, racist puns and whatnot when it came to covid.” But the fact is that this type of racism has existed in the United States forever. As long as Asian people have been in this country, this has been something that’s been going on. I think if we look back at some of the very long lasting stereotypes of Asian people. One of the longest standing, is this idea of like the Perpetual Foreigner, always being asked, “Where are you from? You don’t belong here, that your otherness shows that you are meant to be somewhere else.” I think combined with like the social and political landscape, especially between US and China relations, doesn’t help it at all. As well as the enormous erasure of Asian and Asian-American History in our schools. That one of the lessons I did with my students during API month, I asked them if they could name up to three, Asian American people, either from history, or present day, and out of all of my students, I had six periods of kids. I think the pie chart came out to only about 7% of my students said they could actually do that. Most, the other said, they were not able to. So if there’s no visibility, if people don’t even understand the communities that we’re talking about, ignorance breeds ignorance. And so I hope that we can see more states try to include things like ethnic studies in their curriculum, being explicit about including Asian American representation in history, and that way people can start doing that big unlearning process. It’s a thing that we’re going to have to do collectively.

John: Well, since you said your husband is a chef and your delicious food books behind you that I’ve been staring at besides when I’m in this conversation with you. I’ll go back to the late, Anthony Bourdain. I still love him and I still miss him. And how he made us want to be wherever he was, because not only of his study of the delicious food, street food, and other grandma type food that he would experience in these beautiful and magnificent countries that he got to explore and then share with us. But he also never shied away from the social political situations, historical or current, that existed in those countries or cities that he was visiting, and the mixture and the melting pot of all of those topics just made every viewer with a heart fall love and want to be wherever he was, and be with him enjoying it at the same time. So when you go back to your very wise comments that you just shared about the feeling of otherness and also the lack of knowledge of traditional Americans. Here’s a couple things that I want you to think about, and I want our listeners to think about. Only about, give or take, 39% of all, Americans have a valid passport today. So it’s very low rate of passports, number 1. Number 2, numerically speaking, about 30%, or more of those folks have been to either Canada, Mexico, or South America, and most likely Europe. 7% or less have ever been to any part of Asia. So, when you think about the lack of understanding, there is this legacy intrinsic xenophobia that exist in our history in America about, “The Boogeyman” China. Chine then gets literally washed into every other society, unfortunately, but it goes again the lack of knowledge or you want to call it ignorance, benign, or whatever, it’s still ignorance, and everything gets thrown into that “China Pot” of “that’s evil” and therefore it’s dangerous, and therefore I’m not going there. So the lack of understanding, love, and for those who haven’t been in her thinking about it, obviously, just go because you don’t know about a society, culture, and people until you just go and smell their air, and walk their streets, and eat their food, and meet their people, and get the real joy and pleasure. And I’ve had 30 years of since ’93, I’ve been going to Asia. It’s been one of the greatest parts of my life. And I’ve shared it with my nephew, my son, and soon my daughter, and granddaughter are going to come with me on a trip. But the lack of knowledge of what’s going on there, which this then fanned by leaders and common media figures. Nancy Pelosi just did it when she went to Taiwan. Donald Trump did it while he was president. And during the the Covid period in blaming Covid on Wuhan, and all that other kind of stuff. It just deepened our fear and xenophobia. Unfortunately, Liz, you said you lived in LA. I got to live in LA during one of the most tragic moments in American history. What was then called the Rodney King riots, which have been whitewashed and now call the LA riots. One of the things that aren’t not talked about, and I lived it, I saw it with my own eyes and ears. It wasn’t so much of an attack on black on white and white on black during the Rodney King riots. What it was war and attack of the African-American community on, specifically, the Korean Asian American community in LA, and other communities. And the festering hurt feelings, hatred, and other bad things that we’re going on between those communities that became incendiary during the riots themselves, which sparked an outbreak of crime on crime. And people say, “Really? That really happened.” I’m like, “Oh yeah.” And the scars and hurt feelings are still there. And then when I got to meet with, I got to co-found Homeboy Industries, Father Greg Boyle post riots, and we got to meet with African-American leaders and Latino leaders and something called Rebuild LA. Peter, you brought his running. A lot of the African American leaders that I met with told me back then, there was a systemic hurt feeling that day, the African-American Community back then didn’t understand why the Korean American community and other Asian American communities have come to America, post, they’re coming to America, and had achieved much more of what was perceived to be the American dream in terms of education, In terms of professional careers, monetary enrichment, political awareness, media awareness, and political piece of their part of the American Pie. I always think back to those days in the words of others that knew much more about me, sociologically speaking, I still feel that that goes on today, and I still feel that that’s part of why we continue to see very overt tragic criminal behavior against the Asian American community in the United States. Does any of that make sense to a much younger person like you, who’s much more educated than me on these issues?

Liz: I think there’s a lot of complexity wrapped up in that because unfortunately anti-blackness has been in part of pretty much every Community out there. Clearly, the Asian-American Community is not exempt from that. I would also say that in the historical context of the Rodney King riots, thinking about many of the Korean people who are immigrating from Korea to the United States, and something that we have seen very typically with lots of different groups that have immigrated to the US, is being able to identify immediately who is considered at the lowest rung of the ladder who is treated the worst by our society.  And what can we do to distance ourselves from that group as much as possible? And I think there’s no question about that because our entire country, our economy is based on the enslavement of black people, that when folks come over to the US and say, “Wow, black folks are treated the worst. We want to make sure that we’re not treated like that.” Does it make it okay? Absolutely not. Also knowing that many of the Korean people emigrated from Korea and during that time period are also dealing with the trauma of the Korean war too. And it’s certainly not like folks in the US that see them as black, white, or any race, are being educated about that trauma or that experience. And the same way Korean folks, were coming over from Korea are not educated about the legacy of enslavement or systemic racism in the United States. So it’s not part of the curriculum they have. And so you have all of these people with different amounts of historic trauma, some of which is very fresh, many are still living every single day, put into the same neighborhood, the same community, with complete ignorance and misunderstanding of one another. And then to combine all of that, we’re set up in a society that is, for the most part, very much governed by white supremacist’s values and mindsets, where a scarcity mentality is thrust upon us. Where we think if one group is getting some sort of assistance or recognition, that means that my group must be missing out on this. And in the case of the riots that happened in the early 90s, folks thinking, “Okay, there’s only so much justice to go around and another community is getting something, and that means that we’re not.” And we still see that every single day here too. We see it all the time with the Black Lives Matter movement, and how many folks unfortunately will respond to that with All Lives Matter. And it’s like, “Yeah, we know that and if you’re able to say that then you should understand that black lives matter.” Why can you not say that? It doesn’t mean that you’re missing out on anything else. So combining all of that, I truly think that mutual ignorance is the cause for so many of these racially-charged issues that we see, both today and in our country’s history.

John: Great way of putting it. I never thought of it that way. And you’re right, unfortunately, you’re so so right. And that’s why I wanted you to make sense of it because you may better sense of it than I did. Mutual ignorance. And like you said the zero-sum mentality, “if someone’s getting that, I’m getting less or nothing,” is, of course, not correct but it’s how things are perceived here in the United States. When you talk about the Korean American war though, I go a little bit further with that. They were coming here. They were not just about the Korean War, but that was actually a Korean genocide that they were escaping from, many of them.

Liz: Absolutely.

John: And because you were raised and see yourself as both Asian-Jewish, which is fascinating, I have this discussion all the time with my Korean friends and business partners, and which, because I grew up a little neck two towns over from Flushing, I got to see that first wave, and I got to see the massive success of the Korean American Community here in America. And I have a lot of Korean Partners as well in Seoul, but it’s fascinating to see also the balancing act of how things have turned out in terms of the Holocaust versus the Korean genocide. I’m Armenian. And so, my people survived the first genocide of the 20th century. And so my discussion with my Jewish friends and my Korean friends gets to be a little bit interesting about genocides in that, Koreans and Armenians are very aligned on genocidal issues because they have unrecognized genocides. So the trauma, scars, and wounds are still open. Whereas, it doesn’t take away from the tragedy of the Jewish inside the Holocaust, but theirs at least was recognized and there’s a way to move forward then when something’s recognized, and they some sort of healing that can happen. So, it’s always interesting talking to my Korean friends in Jewish friends and comparing on, again, the mutual ignorance that goes on. And also some awareness that happens around when a genocide, or any harm is recognized, by anyone that’s created trauma, or harm and they at least recognize it. I think there’s a point where there could be some sort of closure. Talk a little bit about teachers who are trying to be responsible in terms of equity and inclusion. After all these years of doing the great work you do, you’re the go-to person. These teachers that are listening and watching the show. What would you tell them when they’re trying to be responsible, wherever they are in the world or in the United States, on equity and inclusion? What’s the best advice you can give them besides buying your great book?

Liz: I would say that you are absolutely going to make some mistakes, and that’s okay. And that you can start small, you can find one topic, one book, one lesson, that you really want to try to shift your lens and how you’re approaching this with your students. It doesn’t mean you have to throw your entire teaching practice out of the window. Because I think that’s what a lot of people often think, you have to totally reinvent the wheel. I think teachers who care about this work are probably already doing a lot of really great things. So it’s sustaining positive practices that are already happening, and choose a one place to also get started.

John: Tell us a little bit about how you’re not only the author of this book, but you have four more books coming out. Talk a little about when those books are coming out and what their topics are, Liz.

Liz: Sure. So they’re all kids’ books. They’re all coming out with HarperCollins. Three are picture books. One is pretty much non fiction. The first one that comes out is going to be on the September 5th, it’s called “Coming Out Are Celebrated All Year Long” because I have done a lot of public speaking out about the importance of decentering Christmas, and Christian holidays and traditions in school. And to note that decentering does that mean erasing. It doesn’t mean ignoring. It’s just to mean that we can recognize that we often create social hierarchies based on cultural dominance and to be mindful of that, in the language that we use.

John: So, I missed that one. We had a little technical glitch. What was the name of that first book coming out?

Liz: It’ll be called, “Come And Join Us.”

John: Got it. Wonderful. And that comes out this September?

Liz: Yeah.

John: Wonderful. Then what comes out after that? What’s your series going to look like?

Liz: “January 2024” is a book that I worked on with my friend, Joanna Ho, who is the incredible author of “Eyes That Kiss in the Corners.” And “Eyes That Speak to the Stars”, which are the first firming look at East Asian physical identity. And the third book in that installment is going to be called “Eyes That Weave the World’s Wonders”, and it’s about an Asian girl, who was adopted, who notices that her eyes don’t look like as the people in her family. And it’s pretty much just the story of me and my parents, and it makes me cry every time I look at it. I’m really excited for that.

John: Have your parents read it yet?

Liz: Yeah, they definitely cried too.

John: If you’re crying, they have to be crying. Got it.

Liz: And then the one that follow that are two books of the same theme. Right now the title is “What Jewish Looks Like”, it’s a biography book where we highlight the lives of 30 sick Jewish people who are diverse across every identity. Because I grew up hearing a lot of, “Well, you don’t look Jewish,” So trying to push back against that bias and that type of stereotype. I’m co-writing that with my friend, Caroline, she is absolutely amazing. And then the book after that is the picture book version of that first one. So the first Jewish book is for more like middle-grade audiences and the second one is for a more elementary school audiences but same topic.

John: Liz, and for a listeners and viewers to learn more about Teach and Transform, of what you do. You also not only are a teacher, and obviously a prolific author, but you’re also a consultant. What is your consultancy look like and your public speaking look like?

Liz: It looks like [inaudible] ones for districts. Non profits to large national corporations, as well as religious organizations. I’m trying to get a sense of what does their community need? Certainly I see more of the, I call them the One and Done type, where they want you to come in and talk about a topic for like 1 hour and that’s it. I definitely prefer being able to build long-term relationships with clients because you’re not going to 60-minute anti-bias trading your way out of hundreds of years of systemic issues.

John: Not in one 30 minutes talk. 4 hour. So do you do your consulting in your public speaker as well, besides being a teacher.

Liz: Yes. I’m not teaching full time this year. I’m focusing more on the consultancy, speaking, and writing more. I actually just submitted a draft of my first stab at a middle grade novel to my agent. So, fingers crossed.

John: Wow! That’s awesome. And any final thoughts before we sign off for today you want to share with our listeners that our viewers?

Liz: Just appreciation that you’re still listening at this point. There are so many amazing podcast and conversations happening out there and just a lot of gratitude that you chose to spend this time with us.

John: Well, thank you Liz. And like I said to you at the top, and I said to you off the air, I’m very grateful for you as a person, we need more of you doing the impactful and important work that you’re doing. And for those who want to learn more about Liz, you go to teachandtransform.org, or you buy her book, “Start Here, Start Now.” Liz Kleinrock, you are making the world a better place. I’m grateful for you as a human being, continued success. I look forward to having you back on and sharing more of your books that come out and sharing your journey. You’re so young, you’ve got so much greatness in front of you, and thanks for being a guest today on the Impact Podcast.

Liz: Thank you so much, it’s wonderful.

John: This edition of the Impact Podcast is brought to you by Engage. Engage is a digital booking platform, revolutionizing the talent booking industry. With thousands of athletes, celebrities, entrepreneurs, and business leaders, Engage is the go-to spot for booking talent for speeches, custom experiences, livestreams, and much more. For more information on Engage or to book talent today, visit letsengage.com

John: This edition of the Impact Podcast is brought to you by ERI. ERI has a mission to protect people, the planet, and your privacy; and is the largest fully integrated IT and electronics asset disposition provider and cybersecurity focused hardware destruction company in the United States, and maybe even the world. For more information on how ERI can help your business properly dispose of outdated electronic hardware devices, please visit eridirect.com.

John Shegerian: Have you been enjoying our Impact Podcasts and our great guests? Then please give us a thumbs up and leave a five-star review on iTunes, Google Play, or, wherever you consume your favorite podcast. This edition of the Impact Podcast is brought to you by ERI. ERI has a mission to protect people, the planet, and your privacy and is the largest fully integrated IT and electronics asset disposition provider, and cybersecurity-focused hardware destruction company in the United States and maybe even the world. For more information on how ERI can help your business properly dispose of outdated electronic hardware devices, please visit eridirect.com. This episode of the Impact Podcast is brought to you by Closed Loop partners. Closed Loop Partners is a leading circular economy investor in the United States with an extensive network of fortune 500 corporate investors’ family offices, institutional investors, industry experts, and, Impact partners. The Closed Loops platform spans the arc of capital from venture capital to private equity— bridging gaps, and fostering synergies to scale the circular economy. To find Closed Loop Partners, please go to www.closedlooppartners.com. Welcome to another edition of the Impact Podcast. I’m John Shegerian and we’re so delighted to have you with us today, Mark Segal. He’s the founder and CEO of ESG today. Welcome to the Impact Podcast, Mark.

Mark Segal: Thanks, John. It’s great to be here, really exciting. Thanks.

John: You know, Mark before we get going to your wonderful online, you know, newsletter publication, whatever you want to term it. I just want to say, first of all, one of the real reasons I was so excited to have you on the show today is because I’m a huge fan. You’re doing great and important work at a very, very critical juncture in the world’s history in terms of climate change, in terms of circular economy, and the shift from the linear to a circular economy. And I just think what you’re publishing on a regular basis is super important and critical to help educate the world about the importance of this shift. The shifts that we’re undergoing right now.

Mark: Well, thanks. Thank you so much. I mean, it’s as great to hear. Honestly, it’s gratifying to hear that, you know, this crazy idea that I had actually draws attention and draws readers. Some people actually get something out of it. So, that’s wonderful to hear, thank you.

John: Our team gets a lot out of it, all of us subscribe to it, and we’ll go more into a little while, but before we get talking about ESG today, I’d love to hear about Mark Segal. Mark, where did you grow up? You have a fascinating background. Where did you grow up? Where do you get educated? And how do you even get to this position?

Mark: Okay, so I grew up and spend most of my life in Canada— grove in Toronto. I went to school there. I went to York University and did the Schulich School of Business during my undergrad there. And then, from there, I went to the investment world. That world for a few years in investment banks, and sell-side research, then I spent a few years in the States. I went to New York. I did my MBA at Columbia University— Columbia Business School and then I returned again, back to the investment World. Spend a little time or a little more time on sell-side research covering technology software but then the bulk of my career actually was spent in investment management. You know, the 15 years before I started ESG today, I worked for a fund manager in Toronto called Delaney Capital but that two billion dollar fund. I was there when there had US equities, at least for the last few years that I was there. About eight years ago now, I moved to Israel where I live now in a town called Widin. I continue to actually work in Canada for the first six years that I was here. I was actually commuting back and forth, overseas everyone.

John: Wow.

Mark: It was tough but I got a lot of pretty good frequent flyer points and lots and lots of airline status. So you know there’s an upside.

John: Right. Sure.

Mark: And then about three years ago, I started ESG today so.

John: What was the ‘Aha!’ moment when you were, historically, a banker? What was- where do you think that, why didn’t you think there was white space in the market for a regular publication on the issue of the topic of ESG? Where was your, you know, how did you connect the dots and where was your ‘Aha!’ moment?

Mark: Yeah, I’d like to say it was some flash of inspiration where I saw the next big thing, but it was all the opposite. It was- I was- I essentially filled a need that I felt myself. As I said, you know, in the years before I started it, I was working as an investor, right? And I was not an ESG investor, I was a generalist investor focusing on everything; US equities, like every sector, energy, as much as technology. As much as consumers, everything. ESG was not a focus at all. Honestly, I couldn’t have spelled it for you if you’d asked me 10 years ago, but you know, at the same time, you know, responsible investing was always something that we were generally interested in, but more for the sense of risk management, more from the sense of, you know, it’s always good to know who’s running your companies. Make sure they’re not doing sketchy things, but it was very, very vague and just more of a, almost a notion or feeling. Then, anything really codified or, specific. About, I don’t know, I would say five or six years ago, like I’m pretty, pretty late into my tenure, met the firm. We started hearing more about ESG. Again, I would love to say that we were sort of on top of it first. And we went to our clients and said, “Oh, you know, the next big thing is,” but it was really the opposite. We really found that our clients were coming to us and saying, “Oh, you know, my friend said, you know, tell me something about ESG investing. Can you tell me more about it? Can you tell me how my portfolios are aligned with it?” All those kinds of questions and what was interesting is, we found that very often, they didn’t even know what they were asking. They just knew that it was something new and important. And, you know, honestly, I think the ideas like, you know, environmental sustainability, human rights, I think those resonate pretty well, right? They aren’t at least at a high level or not hard to explain and explain why they can be important. Then it really started as a trickle. You know, we manage money for some charitable foundations then institutionally, that as well as prime. Well, and I’m really starting to, you know, sort of like on the foundation site where the, I guess, you know, they would be much more interested in the responsible investing site. But it really quickly, really rapidly spread to frequent questions all the time. And, you know, it kind of sent us like etcetera, I’d swing a little bit like we really had to go back and look at our portfolios in an entirely new light. As an investor, what you usually do when you have like a new topic or new area of investment, is going to read, right? He spent 95% of my time in the investment world reading and researching. So that’s what we did here. If we’re okay, let’s go hit the whoops, and find out what ESG stuff’s all about. As opposed to anything else that we did research before, at least for me, it was much more difficult, much, much tougher. We were used to looking at you know, annual reports and like digging up numbers or looking at industry research. There was nothing, or, nothing substantive, right? I mean, some companies especially the bigger ones, as we’re starting to get wind of the fact that they haven’t talked about this stuff. So they put out the equivalent, you see in the 1980s of the glossy annual financial reports. They would do the equivalent of that on sustainability. Basically, say anything they wanted. Basically, highlight only the things that are great. “Oh, look what we did. Look at the charities that we’re funding,” which is all well and good. But the ability to compare companies or industries was almost impossible. And I went from, you know, spending you know 5% of my time on the sustainability NHT to like 50. It was really totally, and completely time-consuming and, you know, on one hand, it was a little frustrating as I didn’t get to do the stuff I would normally do, all financial analysis. On the other hand, I actually found it really interesting, right? So when I left I figured, you know, it would be interesting to sort of go back and see instead of like, you know, going back to another man, firm, in Israel or doing something, you know, investment for maybe, you know, take a look at my old life. Take a pain point and see if I can solve it, right? Which is what I did. So, I thought, “Okay, it’s got to be something ESG. So what can I do with ESG?” I sort of pictured myself coming into my office every morning. What I would normally do was, I’d say, “Okay. I would generalize so I have to know everything that’s going on in, you know, these ten things. I have to know what’s going on and you know, the energy world and if there have ever been any important, regulatory announcements, whatever.” I thought it’d be kind of cool to be if there is something like that for ESG. If there was somewhere I could go for 15 minutes a day, sort of see what the key topics were that were important over the last few days. See, what other investors are doing, or, where capital is flowing, or what sort of disclosure requirements companies are going to have. Anything. But you know this is sort of guide to saying what’s important in the ESG sustainability world, right now, as an investor. And you know, what do I need to know? You know, what companies are on top, and what companies aren’t? You know, all of them to sort of have like, you know, a quick, easily digestible new source. As I said, I started it as an investor focus because that was the voice that I have spoken. But as soon as I did that I had, you know, I found- once I started getting popular, it really went way beyond investors, and, companies were really interested. Companies were actually having to report on this stuff. We’re very interested, interests of themselves, and because they were getting approached by investors who wanted, who are suddenly demanding new things from them. They want to know what their investors were going to be asking. What banks are going to be asking them? They were getting more questions from their other stakeholders or either from all those guys. They want to know what their peers were doing. So I kind of shifted gears a little bit to kind of speaking about both sides. You know, what investors want, what companies are looking at. So it’s really kind of brought focus right now which is you know a bit tough. I might have to let you know, hire a little more staff to cover everything but you know, admittedly, I guess in a long-form answer. That’s where I am right out.

John: You know, about the real, I’m really lucky to have this show because I started this show 15 or 16 years ago— 2007, just to have folks like you on but what always amazes me, is once I got turned on to your great, you know, publication and get for our listeners and viewers who want to find Mark’s great publication called ESG today, very simple. Just go to www.esgtoday.com. Download it, subscribe to it, and read it, you’ll love it. Do you know, Mark, I was in shock once I read the first couple of editions that no one’s done it. It was so comprehensive. First of all, what you were doing, then I said, “What a brilliant guy this is! I got him on the show because where’s this thing been? How are there not tens of these, or, five of these, or three of these? We dived and saw in the form that you did it which was just so- it’s so well done. So you launched this in 2020 which is really the beginning of the pandemic. Talked about being an entrepreneur. Now, you leave a banking job, I take it. I think you thought about this for some time. And five or six years ago, you said you came up with the idea that you started planning on it. Did you fully cut ties with the banking world when you launch this in 2020?

Mark: Yeah, it was really, I mean, this is full-time, right?

John: Right.

Mark: This is more than full-time. This is like 20% full-time. So yeah, I mean, it’s a funny thing in the sense that I still feel like I’m a professional investor even though I haven’t done it in years. But you know, in an interesting way when I started, when my experience in the investment world, at least the part that I was in, is that it’s very insular. You know, like, I mean, you act like you build advantage by knowing things that other people don’t know, or figuring things out the other people don’t know. So your discussions with peers, I mean, outside of your office, your discussion with peers in the industry are kind of limited. And it’s always interesting to meet people who knew what you’re doing, but it’s not that collaborative, you know? I mean, I met and knew other people that I would see at conferences and stuff and, you know, beyond a sort of, you know, “Hey, how you doing?” basis. But I found that after I started doing this, being a provider of information instead of older information, I find that, you know, I’m much more involved in the investment world than I ever was before, which is sort of interesting.

John: Wow. It’s ironic actually.

Mark: It’s ironic, right? Initially, before I become part of it, I didn’t know anybody. Now…

John: Yeah. Now, you’re the bread that every baker wants to know.

Mark: Yeah.

John: So when you launched it, the pan- You launched it before the pandemic, yeah, I take it.

Mark: Before it, just before, which I got to say was a very good time to start a home-based business.

John: Yeah, tried right? You picked a great time for being like, I didn’t have an office or anything working out of your home was a brilliant idea, I guess. So how’s it been? Talk about the journey. Talk about what you share, with what you expected that happened. Please share what you also were unexpected that happened during the last two years of being an entrepreneur now instead of a banker.

Mark: That’s a fantastic question. I didn’t expect it to take off the way that it did. I was hoping that it would but I know I’ve met enough in-trouble entrepreneurs that I know, okay, you know, everyone out of five, ten, and three, I don’t know, really works but I figured out. Look, I’ll give it a shot for a few months. I’ll see if anyone noticed, right? So I polish for a few months and like, “Oh!” you know. I actually got some traffic, it’s kind of interesting. I got my first advertising client, shockingly, but three months after I started publishing which surprised me. I thought you know, I was trying to think of a marketing plan that goes door-to-door then someone actually showed up and said, “Oh hey, I’ve seen your site, do you mind if I advertise on it?” That was that. That was shocking, right?

John: Does your marketing plan- There’s your marketing plan, you had an open great publication, how a lot of people thinking about it and reading it, then people want to advertise on it.

Mark: Yeah, that was both gratifying and relieving because it’s sort of getting the sense for the first time that. Okay, this is actually something I can do professionally. And it is building something out of it which is, well, you know, financially sustainable which is nice. But more than that, the idea of actually just building something, which I never really had the chance to do before. You know, it’s gratifying, rewarding, and, time-consuming like crazy but for the first time in my life, I’m as busy as anything but actually happy about it. And, you know, the more I put into it, the more I get out of it, which is great.

John: How? Okay, so, you know, I used to be in the dotcom world but this was back when I started a dotcom when Google was founded in 1998. I started financialaid.com. So I’ll just go back to some of my old lingo. So talk about scaling, you know, how fast is it scale and where were your viewers the first corner, where your viewers now and, you know, where is this rocket ship going, Mark?

Mark: Right. Yeah, I think I’m still, I hope I am and still in the scaling phase. You know, the thing is, you never know until you’re actually there. I remember- So, okay, let me think. So, when one of my first advertising customers came along, I remember actually, I actually push back a little bit. and I said, “Guys, are you sure you don’t want to wait? You know there’s not, it’s not a whole lot of traffic right now.” But, you know, they said that “I don’t think- you know, we like what you’re doing. We’re happy to support it,” which is fantastic. It was repetitive. It is drastically there and there. I used to be a client of theirs, which they didn’t know when they came to me. They’ve been bought by London Stock Exchange since then. But we’re still in tight with a fantastic life. But anyways, so they came along. I think I told them that you know, I’d managed to get like 20,000 hits on the site by that point. You know, it was pretty early on which is really exciting for me. That’s all, that’s like you know, 20,000 people actually clicked on it. You know, amazing.

John: Right.

Mark: Now, you know, on a good day, I get that. So that’s really nice.

John: That’s great.

Mark: Yeah. So scaled really nicely, you know. I’m not quite there every day but you know, we’re probably 300,000 page views a month which is- and then growing really quickly. I started a newsletter a little- I didn’t do it right away but I started it a little while after because I thought that might be an interesting thing to do and that became very popular. That kind of moved up to about 25,000 subscribers, pretty quickly, 145,000 LinkedIn subscribers which is great. It’s just really gratifying that, you know, to actually see people interested and engaged in this stuff.

John: Give our listeners and viewers, a little glimpse of where this whole trend of ESG and circular economy is going, Mark. What’s getting the most traffic on your site and on your great publication, what are your viewers most interested in? In what topics are your viewers and readers most interested right now?

Mark: Yeah. Okay. So I think far above anything else, are the company’s investors, both of them are really interested in what their obligations are going to be in the next few years, particularly relating to where regulators are going. Any time, I write anything with the word disclosure or climate reporting in the headline, it’s immensely popular. I mean, I’ll also point out where I stick anywhere to the lug, no I’m just kidding, but that is, by far top of mind for companies and investors. I mean every regulator in every major market, is either, you know, coming up with the rules that companies are going to have to provide reporting on climate risk, on their climate plan, especially on climate right now, on climate plans. Some on broader sustainability risks that go beyond the limit by diversity rights, everything, you know, governance, everything else, but certainly in those topics, the SEC in the middle of doing it, the EU just adopted there. That’s one of my top-performing articles of all time when they adopted their CSRD you know, sustainability according to rules.

John: Right.

Mark: Anything like that is very, very top of mind and drives more traffic, more interest, and more feedback than anything. Related to that, and not surprisingly our articles have to do with tools to meet those obligations, right? I kind of see the separate topics, but they’re obviously clearly related. I mean, I did an article a while ago and I think it was about a report that ENY had put out night called to whoever was, who put it out. It wasn’t him, we’re certain it was him. They’d spoken to a bunch of CFOs in companies and asked them, “Where were you on getting ready for sustainability reporting?” Because this stuff is really serious, really detailed, and very data-intensive and they said that over half of them were storing all their information on spreadsheets which I found to just be a shocking statistic and you know these things take a lot more than spreadsheets, right? I mean, there is going to be half, there’s going to have to be a massive investment in tools and data tools. Everything from AI to information management to reporting software to tools that actually record, you know, what type of missions companies have and, you know, supply chain tools to find out what’s going on and what your suppliers are doing? This is men’s stuff and I think the investment has just started and companies’ investors are really aware of that. They know they have big obligations coming up. I think I believe if the SEC put out a study a few months ago saying, you know, estimating what company you’re going to have to spend on average to actually meet it and it was a lot. It was pretty- I wish I can remember off the top of my head what it was. But you know, these are all big things coming and it’s not just a matter of investing in tools, it’s a matter of investing in people, right?

John: Right.

Mark: It’ll just be like you have a CFO office. Now, you have achieved sustainability officer office.

John: Right.

Mark: But they’re going to have sort of like meet. There’s going to have to be somewhere in the middle because you know, CSOs and sustainability officers aren’t typically reporters. They don’t have the financial reporting discipline that, you know, accountants and CFOs do. So there’s going to be a massive investment in people, tools, and everything. So that is extremely popular as well. Other things that I think are really popular. You know, I write about a lot about, you know, just general about sustainability commitments or achievements that companies are doing it because A- it just kind of feels good and you know I say though, generate different demand, different amounts of interest I find. If there are things that other companies are thinking about doing it. It really resonates every once in a while something just really, really hits. A topic recently that I’ve discovered writing in the last couple of months that has gained more popularity in terms of readership, more rapidly than anything I’d seen before is the anti-ESG political movement in the U-, which I think is far as I can tell, pretty much contained in red states in the US. But whether it’s serious or not, it’s making a lot of noise and getting a lot of interest, and people are just getting really riled up, you know, on both sides of it. On the one hand, obviously, I have a passion for ESG. So anything that fights against it, you know, kind of rubs me the wrong way, on the other hand, from a pure business perspective it’s really working for me because it’s a big traffic generator but that is definitely like you know, topic of the day.

John: Well, also, you’re reporting the news, producing the news, isn’t that right? You know, even though you, of course, are pro-ESG it sounds like, obviously that a little bit of conflict, never really hurt any news organization, right? And, you know, I do my best to be as objective as possible just to report the facts. And then, this is certainly, you know, pertinent and material to hang out to the movement in general. For our listeners and viewers who just joined us, we got Mark Segal with us today. He’s the owner and CEO of ESG today. To find Mark, his colleagues, and his great publication and to download it, read it, and subscribe to it, go to www.esgtoday.com. Mark, talk a little bit about your readership, you know. It’s kind of fun as an entrepreneur. When you have a great publication, like, you have to open up the world map and see where your readers truly are, when you open up the world map, what does it look like? Where are you getting the most interest so far? And I know this will probably be evolving as I interview you a year from now or two years from now, but today, where are the majority of your legions of fans?

Mark: You know, you’re right. It’s fascinating to open the map and see like, “Wow.” Like there are people all over the world reading the stuff that I’m writing which is nice, shocking, and fun, right? I would say the audience is probably reflective of the English-speaking business and investment world. Not shocking, I’d say a little, maybe 35, 40%? North America, the US, obviously the other, you know, the biggest. UK and Europe, probably about another third, lots and lots. Asia-pacific, a little bit of South America. Yeah, just all over, there’s Africa. It’s just fascinating. It’s pretty cool demographics. You know, from what I can see just, you know, I guess some, you know, a little bit information on from our newsletter subscribers. It’s a very high-level business audience, I think, the management suites are particularly interested in this like they’re the ones who really have, you know, boards that they answer to and they’re you know, they’re the ones who talk with investors and with regulators. I think around 15% of our subscribers are C-suite, you know. So CEOs, CFOs, and stability officers. You know, once I actually collected that data for the first time it was kind of eye-opening. I thought that was interesting. Another 30%, so almost 50% altogether. Another 3% is you know, Senior Vice President, Vice President, Director. So it’s very, very high level. A pretty big proportion I got to say that their function right in. This is actually really shocking. We’re on the third said that their main- trying to think what the word is, their main function right now is sustainability. So, that’s interesting. It’s, you know, it’s both a high-level audience and the same audience says that they’re heavily involved in sustainability. I thought that was really interesting. Not something I think you’d see five years ago.

John: Right, right, right, that’s interesting. That is interesting. What- when you think about, you know, as you said earlier right now what’s hot is obviously the two sides of the coin of ESG. The little conflicts that are existing right now, like in Texas and other states, as you point out mostly red States, but talk about like the disclosure issues, SEC, what’s Gary Gensler doing in the SEC now? What do you think is- when you crystal ball the next five years, what do you think the hockey pucks going? Not where the puck is today, but now you have two years under your belt of running your great publication and lots of information from lots of really smart folks that you get to talk to and interact with now, on a regular basis. Where do you think this seems like a macro trend is going?

Mark: Wow. Okay, so okay, five years sounds a little scary to me.

John: Three, let’s go to three.

Mark: Okay, so okay, number one I think we’re really just in something that I found really interesting. Just to backtrack a little bit. Yeah, I found it really interesting. Every once in a while, I go and look back at the stuff that I was writing about two years ago. And what I’m writing about now? More than anything, I get a sense that the ESG field has matured a lot since then, right? I mean, I find the stories I was writing back then. You know, the company made some sort of commitment or something. It was a lot vaguer, and a little less ambitious, it just sounded better than it actually was. And I see why. I could see like as an investor back. Then when I say, you know when the company said, “Oh yeah, we’re going to be carbon neutral or something.” I said, “Oh, that’s really interesting. Great.” But you know, as more companies have done it and, you know, it becomes more apparent. That’s actually, you know, that ESG risks and opportunities are actual real investment risks and opportunities. I find investors and regulators are really on top of it and our company has become much more serious. And, you know, you see, you know, goals and actual actions that are much moment surreal. And I think that’s just the beginning. And I think that they, you know, but I wouldn’t call it mature yet but I think it matures much more. I think materiality, the contractor comes into play, in a big way where companies actually focus on the things that matter to them to investors to their actual sustainability efforts. I think that becomes much more apparent when they actually when companies actually have to start reporting according to real standards that they’re going to have to start doing this year next year or the year after that. Right? So I think things grow up in a big way and things get very serious. Now, what I find really interesting is going to happen and I think this is also a function of other things that have just happened in the world. In general, I think now that companies invest in data and information actually up, I’d let you know, and let’s say, you know, supply chains have been a big topic over the last couple of years. As, you know, not specifically from a sustainability point of view, a little bit but much more because the world is in a mess for so long that you know, people really had to like invest in understanding what’s happening in their supply chain and the same time they’re arresting and seeing what’s happening in ESG and I think those things start to come together, right? I think you know, the way that you actually, you know, approach a problem was when you actually when you can actually see it and record on, right? And I think a lot of sustainability risk beyond climate happens in companies’ supply chains, right? Let’s say human rights risk, you’re, you know, if you’re a consumer company and you know, you sell clothes or you sell anything, you know, your supply chain until now has been pretty dark. Now I think the data comes up there, once data’s up there, everyone knows about it, right? Regulators know all about it. Investors know about it, they want to know that there are no human rights problems. They want to know there’s no nothing you know, like slavery, child labor, all of that. So I think, you know, with the maturing of ESG and the availability of data I think things are just exploding because I think like all of a sudden you have all this visibility, all this transparency into things that were totally dark before and a world that’s much more interest. So, you know, I think the next two- in the next three years and, in the next five years, I got over my phobia there. I think things changed dramatically and ESG risk becomes much more important to investment consideration.

John: Obviously, ESG is a broad, broad topic which is great because it gives you lots of subtopics to consider and write about and, your readers and subscribers will be very interested in it. Let’s take out one of the subtopics circular economy, the shift from the linear, or circular economy. What’s the interest level that you see today in your subscriber base right now, on that massive generational shift ha were undergoing as we speak?

Mark: Much higher than it was before, you know, in the beginning, I think people just sort of circular economy, they had a picture in their head of recycling bin and you know, in their office when they had thrown the plastic, I think, again, I think it’s just a matter of the things maturing. I mean honestly, I think people had really heard of circular economy, at least in my circles, no pun intended.

John: Right.

Mark: You know, and until maybe a couple of years ago, and then I started writing about you know, some investors would focus on these guys like Closed Loop, and all those guys. And I find, you know, when I read about them now it’s got a lot more interest than it used to and it’s not just that I’m bigger. So it’s just like it relative to everything else and I think because that fits into so many ESG topics. I mean it really sits at the center of everything. I mean, if you think about it you know like you could draw a line from the circular economy topics, that climate, the biodiversity, even the human rights of the supply chain because I mean if you’re less reliant on going outside for things then you can sort of like you know, you re-use what you have. It just touches everything. So I would say interest is growing and it’s cool to see because it does, it means that people are actually, they’re actually learning. The world’s just much more interesting, which makes my job tougher because it’s me, the expert and stay a step ahead. I’m going to do more reading or studying.

John: Right, right. As an entrepreneur, Mark, you know, when you go to bed at night, what are your top three goals for 2023 in terms of continuing to polish and grow and scale ESG today?

Mark: After another, it’s a great and scary question, you know, I feel that you know, like I said, I’m kind of in the middle, I hope of scaling, right? I mean, I think I’ve already, a few months ago I saw it reach the point where, okay, this is a real business, right? It’s sustainable. I can keep it going, you know, and I felt like I have kind of hit the point where I can officially say that I have like, you know, a media platform. Okay, maybe not a huge one, but something is actually, you know, put things on top, right to build on top. So then, you know, we kind of wonder what you do from there? Like, what can you build on top of this platform? And I’m kind of exploring that right now. I mean, little things that just, you know, little things I can add to the site that I don’t have the author in there now you know. I do a lot of work, make a lot of our advertising clients like, have events that they do that they want to advertise or a lot of like materials that they want to know. The things that I can do to host or drive people towards words, you know, towards their events and towards the material, you know, maybe one day I could do my own events, I think, you know, ESG today presents.

John: Conference at ESG.

Mark: Get out of something…

John: Conference at ESG with all the basic cheap experts in the world.

Mark: Right and for the first time, like just I’m starting to get a lot of questions like, “Oh hey, would you consider a conference?” Honestly, it scares the pants off of me because I’ve worked on conferences before and I know what it involves. But yeah, I built a little bit of staff. I think it’s doable. I think, you know, I kind of locked into the topic that’s really just in its infancy and I love the prospect of growing my business with it. As it matures, we mature, and we can do like so much more, right?

John: Let’s say in the growing topic you know, the individual verticals are becoming more important. I think there is a lot to do.

Mark: Speaking of growing a business, and I agree with you, lots to do, and I think you’re going to just I think you’re going to explode in the coming years just like the topic is going to continue to explode and the importance of it. How many employees do you have now working for you?

John: Okay, it’s a little embarrassingly, small.

Mark: That’s not- actually it’s impressive. The smaller it is, the better. The more everyone thinks, the more you’re even better, better, genius, and a better entrepreneur than it seems like I think.

John: So, there’s me obviously, I do a good chunk of the writing honestly. I’d like to like maybe build my writing staff a little more, so I can do a little more, this and that and a little more management but actually, I do enjoy the writing. So part of that is just an excuse. I mean, I actually enjoyed it. I have one dedicated writer aside from myself, my wife— who’s a CPA, decided that I see you like that. I was up till 3:00 in the morning every day anymore. So she said, “Okay, I’m taking over the back office though.” So it’s like, she’s on the payroll now.

Mark: Yeah. I love it.

John: So they’re just, I just thought I decided to- I’m sorry where are we at? When you are a banker, did you know you were this good of a writer and this prolific, was that one of your love skills then, or?…

Mark: I got horny. I sort of hit my maximum flattery level. So that’s it.

John: Yeah, okay, good.

Mark: I did have to write it for a bit and I’ve always enjoyed it. So I didn’t know if it was any good or not. But yeah, I’ve come to realize more over the last couple of years, you know, what a skillet is, And, I didn’t realize that it’s nice to see that I can actually do it in a way that’s meaningful to people. I don’t think I’m the best writer, but I think I’m good enough, especially with the type of stuff I do. It’s very business-oriented so punchy and fast and not like a flower you elaborate, so I’m pretty good at that. Honestly, so other than that, I’m just hired for a media specialist to work on that on those things that are talking about, you know, like what can I put on top of the platform. I have one, I have like a web developer like on its kind of contract basis and that’s it. That’s us.

John: So let’s- you know, going back, I just want to ask a question. When you are a banker, you never invested in a publishing company before, right? So, publishing was very new to you.

Mark: I knew absolutely nothing about media.

John: So let’s hold that thought and then also talk about the internet, you weren’t a dotcom specialist. You didn’t even have a lot of dotcom specialists where the CEOs, informed you about being a dotcom entrepreneur either, right?

Mark: No. I was a value investor, so that was the first.

John: Right. So isn’t that interesting? You know, people ask me all the time about this. I just want to ask you a few thoughts on this. Being now, an entrepreneur and a successful one obviously, ESG today, is already a success. It’s already taking in advertising dollars. So it’s a business. You got a business on your hands, that’s a success. Is there something to not having experience in you’re given a choice of entrepreneurship opportunity than already having some experience and going in with predisposed notions?

Mark: Wow, what a fascinating idea. Yeah, I mean it’s funny I didn’t even think about the fact that I didn’t know anything about the- it didn’t even occur to me until the- I think sometimes the less you know, right? The less scary something is.

John: Right!

Mark: After six months, I’m like, “Oh well, it would have been really smart if I had done that, but I sort of fixed this problem.” Then again, you know, and I’m still doing that, right? I talk to marketing people all the time now and I still don’t speak the language at all. So I had to like go to friends of my mine to translate. But yeah, I think I’m not sure if I would have done it if I had not if I sort of looked.

John: Right.

Mark: I’m a bit, you know, skeptical in it by nature which I think kind of made me a good and very cautious investor and but you know, kind of insufferable, you know, to my family because I’m always thinking, what if, what if, what if, right? I mean, I heat up.

John: Yeah.

Mark: My anxiety levels are usually here and going into something where I didn’t know what could go wrong and I think that was really awful.

John: That’s us, you know we have a lot of young entrepreneurs around the world who want to be entrepreneurs around the world that listen to our podcast, what pearls of wisdom you have for them now in terms of starting their own business and being disruptive, and going to something that could really make a difference as well as make a profit.

Mark: Well first, you know, absolutely find something that’s interesting to you, right? I mean like I said, the reason that I started doing ESG today is A, because, you know, it’s all the pain point and I thought it was, you know, I thought I saw there were the words made people doing it and all that, but more than anything I spend so much time on it at my last job and I found it more interesting than all the other stuff I’ve been doing. So it was something I really felt that, okay, if I’m going to be pouring, you know, I want to see how many hours a week does. It’s a little bit embarrassing but if I’m going to be dedicating all my time and like a sleepover something, it better be something that I’m interested in.

John: Right.

Mark: So, you know meeting that confluence point of something that’s interesting, as I mean, no one else is doing, and something that has value to people I think was very important. Look, I mean, I thought won’t be interrupted for a long time. I worked for somebody for the first, you know, 20 years of my career. I thought it’d be interesting and but, you know, but when I finally got that spark, I said, “Oh, you know, here’s something that I can do that I like, that I think to be valued and valuable to somebody else. That’s when I really decided to dive into it. So that would be my number one, make sure, you know, obviously, make sure that it’s interesting to other people or something that people are interested in, but make sure it’s interesting to you because, you know, okay. I was gonna say that, you know, like, I don’t know how much awareness I brought to the market, I’m not going to oversell, you know, what I’ve done, but it’s also really gratified to do something where I feel that I’m actually making some bit of difference in the world, to make the world better which is great. In my old job, I felt that a little bit. We were helping people invest and save as a retirement but there was something in the back of my head that always kind of said, like, “You know, are you really doing something valuable? Is the world a better place because of you?” I could say yes, but I had to convince myself a little bit and now you know, it’s nice to really feel good about the things that you’re doing. So, you know, I think that’s where I’m used.

John: Well, Mark, like I said we’re going to have you back on the show to continue to share your wonderful journey. Where’s the best place our audience can find you and your ESG today and where can they connect with you? One of the best places is LinkedIn, esgtoday.com, and where else?

Mark: Yeah, to get ESG today, just go to esgtoday.com. All right. We have a daily newsletter or almost daily newsletter that we send out. So that’s a great place to, you know, just keep them the news flow. To reach me, I do a lot of communication on LinkedIn. That’s a great place to reach out.

John: Perfect. Well, I wish you continued success in your wonderful journey. Thank you, Mark, for making the world a better place, and making a big impact. Thank you for polishing ESG today, and again for our listeners or viewers, www.esgtoday.com. Mark Segal, you’re a great entrepreneur. You’re making an important impact and we wish you continued success. We hope you come back to the Impact Podcast. Another time to continue your shared journey.

Mark: Thanks, I’d love to come back. I really enjoyed it. Thank you.

John: This edition of the Impact Podcast is brought to you by Engage. Engage as a digital booking platform revolutionizing the talent booking industry with thousands of athletes, celebrities, entrepreneurs, and business leaders. Engage is the go-to spot for booking talent, for speeches, custom experiences, live streams, and much more. For more information on Engage or to book talent today, visit letsengage.com. This edition of the Impact Podcast is brought to you by ERI. ERI has a mission to protect people, the planet, and your privacy and is the largest fully integrated IT and electronics asset disposition provider, and cybersecurity-focused hardware destruction company in the United States and maybe even the world. For more information on how ERI can help your business properly dispose of outdated electronic hardware devices, please visit eridirect.com.

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John: This edition of the impact podcast is brought to you by ERI. ERI has a mission to protect people, the planet, and your privacy and is the largest fully integrated IT and electronics asset disposition provider and cybersecurity focused hardware destruction company in the United States, and maybe even the world. For more information on how ERI can help your business properly dispose of outdated electronic hardware devices, please visit eridirect.com.

John: This episode of the Impact podcast is brought to you by Closed Loop Partners. Closed Loop Partners is a leading circular economy investor in the United States with an extensive network of Fortune 500 corporate investors family offices, institutional investors, industry experts and Impact partners. Closed Loops’ platform spans The Arc of Capital from venture capital to private equity, bridging gaps, and fostering synergies to scale the circular economy. To find Closed Loop Partners, please go to www.closedlooppartners.com

John: Welcome to another edition of the Impact podcast. We’re now in 2023, and we’re so excited to have with us today Kristin De Simone, She’s the senior manager of Mission at Thrive Market. Welcome Kristin to the 2023 and the Impact podcast.

Kristin De Simone: Happy new year. Thanks for having me, John. I’m super excited to be here.

John: Healthy and happy new year, especially with Thrive Market now available to so many people around the United States.

Kristin: Absolutely.

John: Before we get talking about the important mission that you’re on and Thrive Market is on, can we talk a little bit about your background so people can learn a little bit about where you grew up, how you even got here?

Kristin: Yeah. It’s been a pretty wild ride. I’ve had a really interesting career journey, a lot of twists and turns. Essentially, I grew up in LA in the valley specifically, born and raised here, never really went too far, not even for college. I’m a SoCal girl through and through. I was born and raised here. My background was funny enough in art. I was an art major in college, and I also played collegiate basketball. My two things were art and basketball. I never even was thinking about sustainability. I only think that was a term when I was in college. Had I known, maybe I would have changed direction earlier. After that, I ended up coaching basketball for 12 years and teaching at the collegiate level. What took me out of that, I had a feeling that I did not want to do that the rest of my life but I didn’t really know what direction to head in. It took two major back surgeries to take me out of that world. I was on disability for a year just feeling lost, really didn’t know what I wanted to do. I knew I wanted to stay in the health and wellness space. This new company, Thrive Market, started and I literally saw an ad for a member services job, applied, got it and worked my way up through that role for a couple years and I was eventually offered the mission manager role which I’ve been doing for four years. I was slightly nudged into the role because I didn’t have any experience in sustainability. I was super passionate about what we were doing at Thrive and about our mission, I always wanted to go to the volunteer events. Somebody saw something in me and luckily gave me that little shove that I needed and said, “You got this.” Here I am, four years later managing Mission.

John: That’s incredible. Part of why your story is so important, we have viewers and listeners around the world that want to be the next Kristin De Simone. It’s so important to understand that life is not one straight path because people think it’s go to college, go to certain high school, go to certain college and then you go get your job and then that’s it and it’s just easy peasy lemon squeezy like that. That’s just not how life really is, there’s zigs and zags. Where’d you go to college by the way?

Kristin: UC Riverside.

John: Is that where you play?

Kristin: That’s where I played. I went and got my master’s at Azusa Pacific in Education. I did go back to school recently. I just finished my Sustainability certificate at UCLA. I saw you that you had Nurit Katz on your podcast,, she’s a freaking rock star, love her. I did go back to school eventually for a little bit and that’s like the perfect program for somebody that’s working a full-time gig and wants to get some formal education.

John: What did you coach?

Kristin: I coached all over, mostly junior colleges in Southern California and then one Division III school.

John: UC Riverside. I know UC Riverside only because I was very, very close with the late Jerry Tarkanian who started his career at UC Riverside. There’s a lot of great stories that came out of there that I heard from him over the years and he was always very grateful for that school for giving him his first chance.

Kristin: I learned a lot of great life lessons, both being an athlete and a coach and I’ve been able to apply them throughout my career so I was so grateful to have that background as well.

John: Here we are now, you’re the mission manager. But when you started at Thrive, as you said, someone saw some greatness on on you in terms of their mission in you, what role did you start and how did that evolution go at Thrive?

Kristin: I started in our member services team but I always wanted to get my hands on anything related to our social mission or our Thrive Gives program, it’s our charitable arm. Then, I just put my head down, worked really hard and just left it up to the universe to land me where I was meant to be. I worked my way up through that department and then took on the mission manager role and a year ago, I was promoted to senior manager and I’ve been doing that for about a year. I’ve been in this specific role for about four years.

John: Got it. For our listeners and viewers who are not familiar with Thrive Market themselves yet, and hopefully you do become familiar with them one day, you can find Thrive Market and you can also find Kristin and our great colleagues at www.thrivemarket.com. Talk a little bit about Thrive Market, tee it up on a macro basis. What is Thrive Market and what do you specifically do and what role do you play in services you perform?

Kristin: Thrive has been around since 2014. Basically, we’re a membership based e-commerce platform for healthy and sustainable products delivered directly to your door. Think like Costco or Sam’s Club meets Whole Foods or Trader Joe’s. For $60 a year, our members get access to highly curated assortment of over 500,000 healthy products. Within that, there’s about 700 of our own innovative Thrive Market-owned brand products and these are all at member-only prices. With every paid membership, we actually are able to offer a free membership to a low-income family or a teacher/student/veteran/first responder. Essentially, the goal is to democratize access to healthy products.

John: How democratized, how far have we come in the eight years of Thrive has existed? Obviously, there’s Whole Foods and all sorts of other great brands across America, but Thrive is a very unique service. How many communities do you serve across the whole United States?

Kristin: Anywhere in the United States, we deliver outside of Alaska and Hawaii, and we have just over 1.2 million members now that we’ve acquired.

John: That’s incredible.

Kristin: There’s lots of room for growth but really proud to see how far we’ve made made it in the years.

John: If you’re in the continental United States, you can become a Thrive member right now.

Kristin: Exactly.

John: That’s awesome. Talk about what you just said about people in need, you facilitate the donated check out program. What does that really mean and why is that so important to Thrive’s mission and heart of caring?

Kristin: Zooming out on Mission, we see Mission as being democratizing access to healthy products and healthy food, but also environmental responsibility. On the access side, our members are able to make an impact just by purchasing an annual membership. With that, we’re able to donate one to somebody that needs it, but they can also go a step further and donate a portion of their savings from their order at checkout. We’ve created basically what we call the food equality fund and we set a goal to raise $10 million by 2025. As of the end of last year, we just hit $9.4 million. A good chunk of that is our members’ donations at checkout, they’re incredibly generous, they always have been and they’re essentially fueling the social impact work that we’re doing. We could not do it without them.

John: That’s incredible. How is Thrive’s offices now and or its corporate headquarters? Is it in Los Angeles somewhere else?

Kristin: We are in LA.

John: How did the pandemic affect two things: how you work at Thrive in terms of at-home versus in-office, and how did it affect your membership? I would assume just as a layman an outsider, that your membership accelerated during the pandemic.

Kristin: We were one of those lucky businesses that we were able to be a resource for people that literally couldn’t leave their home. I’m so proud of the way that we were able to really embody our mission and deliver access to healthy products. There was obviously a huge spike in people just being very aware of their health and their safety so I’m just really excited that we have the opportunity to be that resource for them. I also wanted to mention, you spoke of the Donate at Check out campaign. As soon as COVID hit, we decided to turn on a COVID-19 Fund campaign. Within a few months, we raised over $1.7 million to give stipends to families in need so they could access healthy groceries for free.

John: How are you managing and balancing the interests of families in need which is a whole different algorithm? What does the algorithm look like at Thrive Market?

Kristin: 100% of those donations went to members but we basically just put some messaging out on social media and had people send in their stories about how they’re impacted and that’s how we decided to disperse those funds. Some of the stories were incredibly just painful to read and some sent pictures which broke my heart. The way that our community came together and was so willing to support and do it quickly makes me so proud of the way that our community stepped up and was able to support.

John: How many employees are now part of Thrive in Los Angeles?

Kristin: In LA, I think we’re around 150 or 125.

John: There are more employees nationally?

Kristin: Yeah. We have three fulfillment centers across the US. I think we’re around 800-mark total employees. I’ve got to say in COVID-19, the real heroes here were our FC employees because they were essential to us getting these groceries to families that needed it. They are the heroes.

John: Pre COVID-19, everyone worked in an office. Post COVID-19, it’s a hybrid situation. How does it work now?

Kristin: We did try the hybrid for a little bit but we did establish that we’re now going to be a remote-first company. As of right now, it’s working for us so we downsized our office during COVID and I believe we’re going to be downsizing again. It’s definitely remote first and we’re just realizing how much more efficient folks can be with no distractions. That’s where we’re navigated.

John: When you look at the velocity of new members pre-COVID, during COVID and now, God-willing, we’re in the post-COVID moment and we stay there, talk about the velocity. Was the highest velocity during COVID but it’s still higher today than it was pre-COVID? How does that shape up for such an important and vital brand like yours?

Kristin: We saw a huge spike in membership and revenue during COVID and there’s been some drop-off, but nothing significant. It has definitely normalized our growth but we’re still seeing people stay onboard that did join during the crisis.

John: Talk about a little bit about being a mission manager. I’ve had such a lucky run over the last 15 years interviewing chief sustainability officers, chief impact officers and now, they’re called so many different things like chief diversity officers, ESG officers. Where does mission manager fall at Thrive because everyone can, on a macro-basis, define ESG sustainability somewhat differently. How does that fall out at Thrive?

Kristin: Mission is to make healthy and sustainable living, easy, accessible, affordable for everyone. I basically manage on the access side, I manage our Thrive Gifts program, making sure we’re getting those memberships out to folks that need it and then managing our Donate at Checkout campaign, which a portion of those funds go to support those Thrive Gifts members’ shopping budgets. Another portion goes to any nonprofit that is Mission online that we partner with. I manage that relationship as well. I also do all of our charitable giving, all of our community engagement, opportunities for volunteer work for our Thrivers, we call our employees Thrivers.

John: That’s great.

Kristin: Last but not least, managing our environmental sustainability roadmap. It’s a lot of work but at the same time, super rewarding.

John: Let’s talk about environmental sustainability. Obviously, you just took the certification program at UCLA. What does it mean for Thrive Market on the environmental side? Do you do an impact report every year or environmental report every year? How does that work?

Kristin: Great question. We’ve been doing a basically a mission impact report for the last three years, so this will be our 4th one coming up focused on both social and environmental impact. Both have been ingrained in our DNA since the beginning, both social and environmental. I think we really leaned into our social mission and our social impact work when we first launched and we didn’t really talk about our environmental responsibilities work. We’ve been doing it since the beginning, we’ve been offsetting a portion of our carbon emissions since 2014. We’ve had zero waste practices in place since 2015, doing all this work but not talking about it. We got our head of marketing in a few years ago. She’s like, “Why aren’t we talking about this stuff?” Now, we definitely prioritize the environmental, as well as the social impact.

John: Truth be known also, obviously as you say, it’s a DNA thing at Thrive Market to be on the right side of the environment and social issues and really be doing the right thing on a regular basis even when people aren’t looking. To your marketing person’s credit, the truth of the matter is, the world has just woken up in the last two or three years.

Kristin: 100%.

John: To caring about sustainability, circular economy, ESG especially in America as my experience at least. Europe was generations ahead of us because they’re smaller. You go to UK, France or any other country in Europe and they’re small so they don’t have the benefit of the American way of, “Hey, we’re the land of the white and the free and we have more trash, let’s just dig another landfill and we’ll keep living in the linear economy even if they’re living in the circular economy.” The validation institutionally from BlackRock and all the biggest financial institutions of the world saying, “We’re not going to invest in any more companies and you’re not going to be a portfolio company unless you’re on the right side of this,” was a bellwether moment 18 or 20 months ago. This is now, “Come to America.” It’s not okay that we’re acting one way and the rest of the world is trying to really move us in a different direction, so good for you.

Kristin: Absolutely and we’re the ones that’s a huge piece of this mess that were in. Thank goodness people are waking up because it’s time. We are late to the game but at least we’re waking up.

John: Yeah, but at least great companies like yours and people like you and your colleagues that were doing this on a regular basis anyway, so just messaging it is the easy and fun part compared to actually doing the hard work. You guys were doing the hard work already, so hats off to you, hats off to Thrive Market. For those who just joined us or just tuned in, we got Kristin De Simone here, she’s the mission manager at Thrive Market. You can find Thrive Market and you could join Thrive Market and their great service at www.thrivemarket.com. The environmental responsibility, zero waste carbon emissions. What I’ve learned over the years through other great leaders I’ve had a chance to interview, is that sustainability doesn’t have a finish line. It’s a journey. Explain where Thrive Market is now on the journey and what’s like in front of you that you’re excited about to go tackle in 2023 and beyond.

Kristin: I love that question and definitely agree that this is a journey and there’s still just so much more to learn and do but I’m really proud of the fact that we have formally put together what our vision looks like and a strategy to reach that. In 2020, we actually onboarded a couple industry-leading sustainability consultants to help us map out this five-year sustainability roadmap. The vision is to build the world’s first climate-positive grocery store. Climate positive doesn’t have a formal single definition but for us, we based it on three key areas that we wanted to focus on and all three you have short-term bold but achievable goals that we’ve set. Those areas are carbon, waste and plastic. For carbon, the goal is to go beyond neutral and we’re actually committing to be carbon negative by 2025. That’s a big one.

John: That’s huge.

Kristin: On waste, we wanted to make our zero is practices that we’ve been doing forever official with a zero-waste certification in 2022. We are in 2023, so I’m happy to report that as of November of last year, we got our third fulfillment center certified for zero waste so we have ticked off that goal. I’m really proud for the team for achieving that but work is never done on the waste side. We’ve reached that goal so now, it’s time to set a new one. That’s it for waste. On the plastic side, we’re actually aiming to achieve plastic neutral certification in 2023. We’ll be focused on that this year. Some other exciting things, we’re up for B Corp recertification this year, so that’s going to be a huge focus for myself and a big piece of our team and yeah, just continue to make progress on those five-year goals.

John: Let’s go back to those three issues that you raised. What’s the scorecard that you use and how do you score those? There’s lots of great consultants out there, there’s the Ellen MacArthur Foundation and there’s other certifying bodies here in the United States on terms of zero waste and zero plastic. How do you go about it? What have you found works and what have you found maybe doesn’t work?

Kristin: For zero waste, the organization that we’re working with is a true certification, it’s administered by GBCI which is Green Building Certificates. What’s cool about them is they focus on upstream efforts including redesign, reduce, reuse. It’s not limited to just downstream effort. A minimum requirement of that program is to have 12 months average of 90% or more diverted from landfill, that’s just a minimum requirement. They take a look at everything you’re doing, including all the upstream effort. Just focusing on trying to get the least amount of waste in the facility so we don’t have to deal with how we’re going to get rid of it. It really requires some innovation and thoughtful strategy around how we’re ordering products.

John: That’s fascinating. As you say, we live now when you’re doing that reporting and scorekeeping and score carding, it’s multi-dimensional. You’ve got to look upstream and downstream. How do you message that to your up streams and your down streams when some of them are not are not as situated from a DNA perspective and sustainability as well as you are? How do you bring them along into this grander vision to make the world a better place now?

Kristin: I think just being really transparent about what our goals are and how we feel that they are going to help contribute to reaching those goals and just making you feel really inclusive, but also just being very firm. We have an environmental purchasing policy and if there’s vendors that don’t agree with that policy, there are separate conversations that happen but we haven’t really seen a ton of push back on after we message what our goals are and how these vendors and other companies can help us achieve them.

John: On the plastic side, who do you use on the plastic side or what do you do to reduce your plastic and to get your vendors and to get your upstream and downstream also thinking the way you’re thinking?

Kristin: Great question. When it comes to our products, our merchandising team are the experts in that space. They have a map that they follow on how they determine which packaging we’re going to go with for certain products. It’s been easier in the non-food space to avoid plastic so we’re making a lot of progress. There still a lot of work to be done but we’re trying to minimize packaging as much as possible. We’ve done that, we’re looking at compostable material, PCR or anything we can do to avoid virgin plastic. Additionally, we’re partnered with a company called How2Recycle that literally labels each one of our private label products, giving the consumer information of how exactly they should be disposing that product and just making that really clear, providing some end-of-life options for those items that may be confusing to the consumer which I think is pretty common.

John: That’s really cool though. What month of the year do you publish your progress?

Kristin: Typically, around Earth month. We’ll likely do that at end of April. The one thing that we’re pursuing this year that we haven’t previously is the climate neutral certification. That could take through

beginning of April so we’re looking at a late April release for that report, just so we can have that certification wrapped up to include.

John: What’s that certification? I’m not familiar with that one.

Kristin: It makes it a lot easier and efficient to measure your company-wide carbon emissions. They have a tool called the BEE Tool, it’s a brand estimator tool. At a high level, they basically look at how the company is spending money and where and then you have an opportunity to use that tool to plug-in raw real data and refine those estimates. They have back-end LCAs that they use to measure but I’ve been working with them for about a year. We actually used their tool last year but didn’t certify, we’ll be doing that this year. As part of the certification which is super exciting is, anyone that pursues that certification has to set science-based reduction targets. They have to put together reduction action plans. That’s all wrapped up in that certification so it’ll be super rigorous but awesome opportunity for us in Q1 this year to put together some action plans.

John: I know you’re an ex-athlete and you’ve got tremendous stamina but you’ve taken on a lot as the mission manager. How many folks, relatively speaking, are working with or underneath you to execute all this tremendous and impressive and inspirational work?

Kristin: I see myself as a project manager. I let the experts do what they’re good at. We have our amazing leaders in our fulfillment centers leading the charge for zero waste. I let them do their thing. Our merchandising team is amazing. As far as how many people, probably in the 15-20 people. But he cool thing about Thrive is everybody is mission-aligned, everybody wants to contribute. It’s never hard for me to go to a stakeholder and tell him what I need and them to be super pumped about helping us.

John: It’s cool when the culture is democratized, the mission is democratized because there’s no convincing. You’re just really communicating that.

Kristin:100%, it’s making my life a lot easier.

John: Obviously, you’re beyond knowledgeable and you’re a tremendous expert just from our conversation here. What did you pick up at UCLA that’s going to serve you well in the years ahead of Thrive?

Kristin: That’s a great question. It was very communicated like how dire a need it is for companies to not just set these long-term 2040-2050 targets. It’s setting short-term targets, taking action, not just it being all words. Like I said, we’re late to the game. We see a lot of words, there’s not a lot of action. The importance around taking action now, just this program solidified the fact that this is an urgent crisis and everybody needs to get moving especially companies.

John: Kristin, when you look for inspiration yourself in terms of what other brands are doing in sustainability, in ESG, in circular economy behaviors, where do you look?

Kristin: The gold star is Patagonia. Yvon is a legend. I’m also a huge fan of Rose Marcario.

John: I had a chance to meet Rose couple years back. She’s wonderful.

Kristin: She’s a rock star. I would love to have dinner with that woman one day. Other brands, even our third-party brand partners, they inspire me all the time and our team. Dr. Bronner’s Good Sam is another great one in the regenerative agriculture space. So many of our brand partners are as passionate as we are about about this.

John: Talk about that a little bit because in most industries, and this is just my experience, but I love to hear your take on this obviously. Most industries are highly competitive in terms of it’s a zero-sum game but when it comes to, as you say, “We’re late to the game, this is about making the world a better place together”, how fraternity-like is the brands that you work with, the brands that you’re connected to, in terms of trading best practices, relationships, connections and help move the ball forward to Thrive and realizing that when the ball moves forward with Thrive, everybody moves forward together and the world is a better and greener place?

Kristin: When we’re onboarding a brand, that’s a big part of our process when we’re bringing a brand onboard. It’s making sure that they are aligned with our mission, they do have some sustainability practices in place. One thing that we are exploring this year is we’re putting together a plastic working group. We just started a quarterly meeting with all of our brand partners just to talk about where we’re at as a company, any mission highlights or whatever we have coming up next. But the next goal for us this year is to put together this working group and be able to have a collaborative experience with our brand partners and be able to share ideas. We see a lot more power in the group of us as opposed to trying to take this stuff on by ourselves. I’m really excited to start that next quarter. But other than that, that’s how we’ve been engaging our brand partners so far around sustainability.

John: Talk about the inherent, “The world isn’t perfect. People aren’t perfect. Brands aren’t perfect.” Now, a hot new plant-based product hits the market and Thrive wants to carry it and get it to its 1.2 million members. But as you’re onboarding them, you realize these folks are not aligned with the way you’re setup and situated. How do you balance the interest on commercial ventures versus social mission, manager mission, environmental mission in position that you sit at? How easy is that, how often does that happen and how have you walked that line before?

Kristin: I don’t have a ton of visibility into that we let our product innovators in our catalog managers manage those relationships but I know how stringent our standards are especially around quality. All of our food products are non-GMO so we ask a lot of questions to these vendors. Some of them have even said, “No one’s really ever asked us this before. No one’s asked about this ingredient before.” It gives you some insight into how many questions we do ask. We’re hyper curated so we don’t need to bring in every single brand so we have some leverage there.

John: Out of all the great work that you’re doing which is just simply incredible and it’s honestly for me at my age, it makes me feel so hopeful that your generation, the future is in your hands and we’re going to have a better future than we’ve had in the past in terms of environment, that’s incredible what you’ve been doing. If you had to pick out one thing that makes you most proud of your tenure at Thrive Market, what would be that one thing since you began at the company?

Kristin: I have to say becoming the largest online grocer to achieve that B Corp certification. It took us about a year to submit that and some back-and-forth, but it’s such a huge achievement across the entire company. Just having that validation that we are meeting those high standards for both social and environmental performance, that’s got to be my most proud moment to date.

John: That’s great. Any teasers you want to give for 2023 before we say goodbye for today?

Kristin: Any teasers, we’re just consistently bringing on brand new products, Thrive Market-owned brand products, we’re exploring upcycling, just trying to really stay on top of the trends. It’s going to be an exciting year for us.

John: Even if people don’t want to buy your great products out of the 500,000 great curated products that you have, they can just join because part of that money’s going to go to other good things, right?Joining already forwards to greater mission of making the world a better place.

Kristin: We would hope they would join and order. As many people in the community, we would love as many people as possible to join us.

John: Got it. I’m sure Thrive is going to continue to thrive in the months and years ahead especially in 2023 and beyond. Kristin, you’re just incredible. For our listeners and our viewers, please go to Thrive Market and sign up at $60 a year to get everything delivered right to your home at such a great service. People with Kristin running the show over there, you know you’re in good hands. Kristin again, thank you for your time today. You’re not only inspirational, but thank you for your service in making the world just a better and more sustainable place.

Kristin: Thanks, John. That was fun, I appreciate it.

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John Shegerian: Do you have a suggestion for an amazing Impact guest? Go to ImpactPodcast.com and click “Be a Guest” to recommend someone today. This edition of the Impact Podcast is brought to you by ERI. ERI has a mission to protect people, the planet, and your privacy, and is the largest fully-integrated IT and electronics asset disposition provider and cybersecurity-focused hardware destruction company in the United States, and maybe even the world. For more information on how ERI can help your business properly dispose of outdated electronic hardware devices, please visit ERIDirect.com. This episode of the Impact Podcast is brought to you by CO2.com. Companies today are trying to figure out how to achieve high quality climate credentials. CO2.com is the easy button for any business to go beyond offsetting and fund truly impactful projects across carbon, nature, and community. CO2 provides verified metrics that can be used in reporting and messaging. Have confidence in demonstrating your climate leadership. Go to CO2.com to access quality climate credentials you can trust on the road to Net Zero and Nature Positive.

John: Welcome to another edition of the Impact Podcast. This is a very special edition. We’ve got with us today on the Impact Podcast, Ross Mackay. He’s the Founder and CEO of Daring. Welcome to the Impact Podcast, Ross.

Ross Mackay: Thank you, John. I appreciate it. I’m very excited to be here.

John: First of all, I love the name. We’re going to talk about how you came up with that name in a little while, but before we do that, first, talk a little bit about where you’re from, Ross. I know you’re in Los Angeles today. I’m in Fresno. You’re not originally from LA. Where are you originally from, and how did you even get where you are now? How did this journey get you here?

Ross: You may hear my accent, definitely not from the US. In here a couple of years, and we’d get into that, but originally from Scotland. Grew up in Scotland. Considering what I do now, it sounds very contradictory. Scotland’s very well-known for beef and salmon and horse whisky, but growing up, I actually played a lot of sport, played a lot of tennis, quite competitively, actually. I played for Scotland. Andy Murray’s mom was my coach, Judy. It’s shaped a lot of my junior life, the athlete in me. I was very much focused on performance, nutrition, recovery, and a lot of that is very much fundamentally as a result of what you put in your body. Very early on in the young age, I learned this common saying, “You are what you eat,” and I was eating a lot of animal protein, or I was told to eat a lot of animal protein because fundamentally, it’s “the healthiest way to live”, “the best way to perform”. Fast forward, I was 16, 17 years old, stopped playing tennis competitively, and took a step back and looked at what I was eating, if I felt good from it, if it made me feel great, if it made me look great, as well as often people do, and decided that I wanted to go in a different direction. I stopped all animal products, cut out my whey protein, cut out chicken, cut out eggs, cut out dairy, and as cliche as it sounds, I felt great. I felt like a new man. That led me into the plant-based journey, led me into trying many different types of products, as I’m sure you’ve tried yourself along your journey. What I found was there was something missing within health. There was something that was great on taste, may be good on texture, but fundamentally, always contradicting health, long list of ingredients, often, ingredients that made no sense to me, maltodextrin, [inaudible], gums, TaO2, and I felt like as an entrepreneur, that, in me, I wanted to create something that I always felt was missing. One, focused on chicken, my favorite protein at the time; and two, something truly healthy, something short, relatable ingredient, something really strong for macronutrient high-protein, low-carb, low fat, and that led me into creating Daring, venturing over to the US to try and raise some capital, and try and follow in the footsteps of many great brands that have done some awesome things in the space. I’ve been here since January of 2020, not so long, and we’ve been trying our very best to scale Daring since then. I’ll pause for a second.

John: That’s great. How old are you now, Ross?

Ross: I’m 31. All the plants are making me look 16, but I am 31.

John: I was saying, you look like you’re 20 years old. It’s amazing. It’s really amazing. When you were switching from your high-protein animal protein diet to plant-based eating, who was or is your guiding light? Did you read a book? Did you listen to a podcast? Where and in whom was your inspirational guiding lights?

Ross: A number of different resources. The data was young then. There wasn’t as many people tracking performance and recovery, following a plant-rich diet. I think a friend of yours, Rich Roll, was actually a great inspiration for me. I was watching him do the vegan mashed potato with his wife on YouTube many years ago, almost 10 years ago, and I started to play around in the kitchen myself and realized that, actually, you could enjoy food without the use of animal products. A number of different resources, a number of different “influencers” early on activating in the space, and obviously, today, you just don’t have to look far to see many people promoting education around the benefits of a plant-based diet.

John: I so agree with you. As my audience know, I’ve been a vegetarian. I’m 60 now. I’ve been a vegetarian approximately 43 years, and a vegan about 11 or 12 years, and Finding Ultra was one of my great inspirations. Rich is not only an inspirational human being as people go, but what he put in Finding Ultra, I think, has changed so many people’s lives. I was just wondering if that was one of the points that got you going and got you pumped. You came to America. Have you developed the product before you came to America?

Ross: Yeah. I remember getting dropped off at the airport in Glasgow International in January 4th, 2020. My Mom and Dad said, “I’ll see you in a week.” I haven’t been home yet, John. I will. I have plans to do so, but a reason I say that is I had north of $2,000 around in the account. We had about 2.3 pounds of product samples, a bench scale. I went over to the US, went over to New York, we had family and friends capital, like I said, a few thousand dollars. This money was meant to last me, until one night, I found more capital or two, like I said, I got a flight home and I haven’t been home yet. A lot of the last few years have been building the balance sheet to support audacious goals and vision we have. A couple months into being in America, obviously, COVID hit, which could definitely [inaudible] in our launch strategy, or even our whole vision across the channels. What was important then is the importance of health, the importance of plant-based being very much top of mind for a lot of investors, as they’ve watched the success of Beyond Me, the success of Impossible penetrate the market. Coming to the US with something different, something focused on chicken, something focused on clean and healthy, there’s a lot of people out there that have seen the pattern recognition of what it takes to scale a company. Fortunately, I landed on my feet here and we’ve done a couple raises in the last few years to support the business.

John: Well, hello to Mom and Dad back in Glasgow. I’ve been to your great country or homeland. I just think Scotland is just… the people are unbelievably warm, and it’s just some of the prettiest countryside on the planet, frankly speaking. What you didn’t share with your parents, then, was a week in the life of an entrepreneur is a very long period. It could be a very long period. What I’m also fascinated with is the immigrant story. My family is third generation now. I’m third generation Armenian, but you’re now first generation. You come over here. I think there’s something to immigrants and being entrepreneurs that I find the common themes in terms of, “Why do some folks succeed and others don’t in terms of your resilience, your flexibility, and your grit?” Do you find that to be true that those are three of your traits that when you came over here, you were determined to make this work?

Ross: Fundamentally, yes. I think the USA is a place that allows you to dream. It really does. It sounds like the back of a postcard or something, but the reason I say this is just a week prior to flying here with the same product, pitching to investors, pitching to retailers, pitching to restaurants in my hometown, people laughed.

John: Is that incredible? [crosstalk] You’re a hometown hero and you think they’d all want to just rally around you and lift you on the shoulders.

Ross: I think definitely not a hometown hero. Again, a week later at the US, people got it. There were people that I was able to connect with that had seen great products, they understood the big market, the opportunity, and I think it’s just where I grew up, as many like you said, it’s a beautiful country, but not many entrepreneurs and skilled businesses there and launched them in America. I felt I have to be here. I had to be around bigger thinkers, necessarily bigger town[?], you eat a lot of chicken over here in America, and access to capital to scale the company.

John: We’re going to go into that in a second. For our listeners and viewers who just joined, we’ve got Ross Mackay with us. He’s the Founder and CEO of Daring. We’re going to be talking about naming this great brand, and also, what I experienced with your wonderful products, these are just two of the great sample products that you and your team were kind enough to send me that I’ve tried already, and we’re going to talk about that. To find Ross and his colleagues and their great plant-based chicken products, please go to www.Daring.com.

Ross, now, you’re a very humble guy because if I was sitting in your shoes, I probably would have led with, “Well, John, my investors were and my investors are”, but you didn’t say that. I’m just going to share with our listeners and our viewers, among your investors, as a stranger coming to this promised land, you’ve happened and found a way to land Drake, Steve Aoki, Naomi Osaka, and Cam Newton, among others. That sounds like a magic trick. How did you find a way as a stranger in this promised land, with not a lot of dough in your pocket, to meet these folks and convince them to invest in your delicious products?

Ross: I think to the listeners, I think raising money and building a great business are separate things. I want to start with that.

John: I fully agree.

Ross: We’re focused on the latter, building a great business, and we’ve been successful raising money. Let’s see if we can be successful at building a great business now. Our first investor was a company called Maveron Ventures, I guess, when Dan Levitan partnered with Howard Schultz to look at early-stage companies. Very quickly after that, we were fortunate enough to raise money and investment from some of the names they are along with, more prolific, crossover funds like D1 Capital, Founders Fund, Peter Thiel led our last round of funding, as well, so really an influx of great investors, individuals that have seen companies go from obscurity to ubiquity very quickly, and then challenged big markets, but I think overall, the alignment in mission, the alignment in putting capital to great use, it’s not often where you can essentially create real value for not only consumers, but also the sustainability, ESG impact of what we’re doing day-to-day. I think as you look at the investment horizon, that has become more and more important to investors and LPs across the landscape. Also, celebrities, you talk about individuals like Drake, Cam Newton, Naomi Osaka, their sponsorship deals every day, they walk out the door, but where do they want to put their name behind? The days of attaching themselves to the Coca-Colas necessarily are not as exciting, even though the paychecks are real. I think it’s a mixture of impact and great product. Part of my role as a CEO and many other,, I would say, CEOs’ responsibility should be set the vision, build a team, if that’s internal and external, and to fund the company. That is a responsibility.

John: How much to date have you raised, approximately?

Ross: Just north of 120 million in the last year and a half.

John: I think, Mom and Dad, if you’re listening, I think it’s time to come over to LA and visit Ross because I don’t think he’s going home anytime soon.

Ross: No, I don’t think so. I will soon, but they’re welcome here anytime.

John: You raised this capital. Like you said, it is a very astute comment for a young entrepreneur to make raising capitals, one art and one science, but building a business is a whole different set of qualities and set of skills. How do you toggle between both, and how is the building? You’ve succeeded massively. Truly, my hats off to you in raising capital with those kind of names, influencers that are worldwide known celebrities. How did you then transition and toggle into now building this great brand that you have on your hands?

Ross: Building a team. I mentioned the responsibility of the CEOs to definitely fund the company and set the vision, especially in the early days, but you go from spinning every plate to hopefully spending less plates in the ones where you think you can have the greatest impact. I was fortunate enough to, yes, attract capital, but also attract other great entrepreneurs to join me on building this organization. When I look left and right and all across the org[?], we have great members of the Daring team. We have people that have seen large scale conglomerate business process driven and we have people that have been entrepreneurs, themselves. We have a real balance of, like I said, pattern recognition on building and also the grit and determination and eating [inaudible] every other day to just keep going. I think the most important thing that as being essential for getting us here. and I still feel like we’re just starting, is building that team, one, to allow me to go through other [inaudible] and know different opportunities to build and to raise, but also to help me execute on what it takes to build the business. Kudos to me for hiring the team, but kudos to my team for taking the leap and “being Daring” and joining us on the mission.

John: Who was your food scientist that you brought on originally to help you create this great product?

Ross: A gentleman, Paul Newman. Paul is an awesome individual. He heads up the R&D and Innovation team at Daring, years of experience, building out the Kellogg’s business, plenty of patents under his belt, a lot of IP[?] generated. Most recently, he was at Califia Farms, the oat and almond milk alternative dairy company. He joined us at Daring to build out the product suite. I feel very fortunate. Under him, he has a roster of awesome individuals across product directors, scientists, and so on. It’s amazing to see what he does every day in the office

John: How many employees do you have now?

Ross: I think we’re at about 45. It’s very lean. I think one of the advantages of being such a lean organization is it allows you to move quick. I often say, “We might not win on resources, headcount, capital, but we will win on speed and velocity and cadence that we move at.” Like I said, two years in this country and we’re in 11,000 supermarkets. I think if that says anything, then speed is something that’s important to us. That nimbleness and that ability to move quick with a 40-plus person team is something that I think is a real advantage to us.

John: You just talked about speed. One of our core values at ERI, which are printed on everybody’s signature block is, “Speed matters. Every second counts.” There’s a lot of smart people out there. There’s a lot of smart people, there’s a lot of money out there. You got to just execute every day at the highest rate you can.

Ross: Absolutely. Completely agree.

John: Who was the person or people who came up with the name, Daring? I love the name. I just think it’s awesome.

Ross: That is something I will take credit for. I touched on my diet, growing up, wasn’t as fun and friendly as it is today, let’s just say that. It was a friend of mine who was living a vegetarian lifestyle. He’s a very fit individual. We ran marathons and he looked great. He took a look at my plate one day and said, “You eat far too much animal protein.” I said, “No, you got to. This is what makes you big and strong.” He said, “I dare you to go a week without meat.” “I’ll take that $10 bet and let’s see where it goes.” That’s where the name originated from. I think [crosstalk]

to us, now, Daring is more than a name. It’s a philosophy we’re committed to bring in to light and supporting daring people who are challenging the status quo. It’s about blazing[?] unconventional paths and creating meaningful change in the world. That is what Daring is. We’re very proud to work with a number of different influencers, most recently a campaign with world champion fencer, Miles Chamley-Watson, and that really was to inspire different trailblazers who are being daring every single day. That’s what it’s all about. We always say we’re more than a product, we’re a philosophy, and we’re a movement. You’re daring for your journey and your story, and I’m daring for mine. My wife’s daring. Everyone else has their story, so that’s what it’s all about.

John: Did your wife move with you from Scotland? Did you meet your wife here?

Ross: I met my wife here, actually. I met her in New York. We’re familiar with each other before. She’s also not from the US. She’s from Amsterdam in the Netherlands. [crosstalk]

John: She’s a plant-based eater?

Ross: For the most part, yes, absolutely.

John: Great.

Ross: I think it’s going to take a little bit more innovation and a little bit more investment into other parts of her diet to really make that full switch. Like I said, this is not about creating more vegans. This is like giving more great options to more meat-eaters, and that’s how we change it.

John: That’s a brilliant point, Ross. Everyone thinks being a plant-based eater is all or nothing exercise. You just disavowed them of that. It’s just getting more options and mixing your diet up a little bit more so you can have some just really great products that are plant-based to enjoy, instead of just everything being the legacy products that we had 30 or 40 years ago.

Ross: Exactly.

John: Let’s talk about this. You get in at 2020, you raise some dough, you move to the West Coast. When did you move to the West Coast?

Ross: I moved to the West Coast, actually, about a year and a half ago. I was in New York for a year and a half-ish. I’ve been here for the last year, year and a bit.

John: When did you then know you had a product, you’re ready to go, and then you launch the product? How did that go? What was the first email, fax, or text message knowing that you got your first order in the door? Who made the first order?

Ross: A fellow Scot named Jack Sinclair, CEO of Sprouts [crosstalk]

John: Great brand.

Ross: Yeah, great brand. I was fortunate enough, reached out to him on whim, somehow, and I managed to find his email. You can find anything on the internet. I said, “Fellow Scot here, ready to change your business.” He said, “Well, come in to Scottsdale and show me what you’ve got.” He was kind enough to open his kitchen at the headquarters, bring in the right people who controlled the category within frozen, and they got it right away. They’d seen Beyond and it seemed impossible, and I think they’d seen both the pros and the cons of those products. He said, [crosstalk]

John: Take our audience. Walk about that day. Who did you decide to take with you on the trip? How many days in advance did you go down? What was the pre-game plan? Where did you stay? Did everything go to plan or were there somewhat some potholes or hurdles you hit while you were down there the big day of the show?

Ross: Well, this was the week I landed here. I was in New York, and that was the opportunity, three or four days in to being in New York. The email response came in and it was, “Where do you stay at?” I replied, saying, “Well, I’m in Scottsdale.”

John: What an entrepreneur move there. You’re an innate entrepreneur to say that. That’s a rarity. That’s great.

Ross: Trying to get on someone’s schedule two weeks on Tuesday wasn’t going to work for me, and certainly wasn’t going to work for our cash flow at the time. We hustled together with me, and I will say, I took the remaining product that I had. We took a one-way ticket to Scottsdale.

John: Just you and the product?

Ross: Just me and the product, and a frying pan. I swear, I still have that frying pan. I think I didn’t really know what to expect, John. My expectations were… obviously, I’m optimistic, but getting in the meeting was so exciting to me. To be at a retail headquarter, roads, 300 doors talking the natural channel, it was a dream. I was so excited at the logos and the brands they were working at Sprouts all over, and it was a beautiful office, obviously, a warm welcome from a fellow Scot, which was always a good icebreaker. I’ve been cooking this product now on and off for the best part of a year and a half through innovation, so it wasn’t my first time at the rodeo. Kicking in, it’s downstairs in their beautiful kitchen, and I brought the food up and I’m nervous because it’s getting cold, when you travel in the elevator. You wait for that first bite. They pick up their product and they look at you, and you’re waiting, and they’re, “That’s pretty good.” He goes for another, and a second, and a third, and a fourth, and the plate’s clean. I’m thinking, “Yeah. Here we go.”

John: Wow.

Ross: That was that. He had his buyer, Scott Reed, awesome individual. They said, “Okay. When can we launch this?” Bear in mind, I had no product. I hadn’t commercially scaled, I hadn’t found a manufacturer to take this to full scale. I didn’t even have a packaging design ready. This was in a plastic bag. He said, “When do you want to launch?” I said, “I’m ready whenever. I have the supply chain bill out, we’re in a US company where we’re in.” He said, “Okay. How about March? We’re doing a review in March,” and it’s two and a half months. I said, “Sure. How many stores?” “All of them.” “Okay.”

John: First of all, another great entrepreneur move. You just say yes and you figure it out after you get the deal. You said yes, again, amazing innate skills, and then to put together a packaging that is so… really, your packaging is gorgeous. To do this on such short notice, how did you pull that off?

Ross: That was just a skill set of one of my first employees. He was a designer at home that lives here in the US also with us. It was with my cousin, his partner. She just designed it, and the packaging has changed since then a little bit, but that was on the shelf for the best part of two years. Success in Sprouts remains top or the number one in the category. We’re doing really well there. I will say, the last thing is I have to then go and set up a US company and do all that, and get the logistics and get the supply chain and get the import, [crosstalk] and get some money. It helps. I think the overall takeaway in here is putting those tight timelines on things, like you said, it forces you to move quick. I think often when you do hire and you build a team who have potentially done this more than you, they want to push things out. It’s your job to squeeze. You want to do it in 20 days? What does 10 look like? What does two look like? That’s something that I think, obviously, a lot could have gone wrong, but thankfully, we shipped the product. A few things did go wrong, but the best part, [crosstalk] that’s normal. Exactly.

John: So you got the book end of the launch, a brilliant launch with Sprouts that has gone swimmingly well for two years. Now, talk about Ben and Mel. Where are you now? How many doors do you have now? Where can our listeners and viewers find you today? They’re going to want this, and I’m going to go talk about a little bit about my experience with your product.

Ross: Yeah, absolutely. Daring is available through the delivery systems like Amazon Fresh, Gopuff, Instacart, and meal delivery services like Sunbasket and Perfect Foods, Hungryroot. More impressively, I think it’s their national distribution in more than 11,000 stores, like Target, Whole Foods, Albertsons, Walmart, Kroger, of course, Sprouts and Bristol Farms in Erewhon, and you name it. I think it’s unheard of.

John: It’s everywhere.

Ross: Yeah, we’re everywhere. That’s the mission. Our mission is to bring tasty, healthy, plant-based chicken to as many people as possible to drive a change in this pit[?] system. That is what plant-based means. It’s not a niche product. This is to remove chicken from the food system is our actual mission, and we only do that by penetrating as many stores with as many SKUs as possible. When we launched here in one product, we’re now four. You’ll see a lot of innovation come to market in 2023.

John: Your team was kind enough to send me all four of your products. These are the two I tasted last night, and I’m going to tell you, I’ve been eating plant-based food for a long time. I have a couple of data points I want to share with our listeners. First of all, your food was delicious, [crosstalk] both the breaded and the original. I wanted to try the original, I wanted to try to breaded because breaded is my favorite after the original. I figured it’d be a great understanding of what your product tastes like. It was just on the tongue, and digestion, just delicious. The other things I always think about is, does it interfere with my sleep? My sleep was perfect last night, literally perfect. I woke up at 6:00, and I went and worked out for an hour and a half, lifting weights. I was real strong this morning. I’m going to just tell you and our listeners, this Daring product is not only a delicious plant-based substitute, but it burns really well in my body. I have a pretty sensitive stomach and also sensitive sleep habits. I’ll tell you, I would be shocked if other folks didn’t have a similar or great experience with your products, as well. Just tremendous. Thank you very much for sharing these. They were really great, and I’m going to be sharing with my son and daughter, who are adults, and they are married with spouses. This will be in all of our homes now. Just a great product. How about restaurants? Are you getting picked up in restaurants across the United States?

Ross: Yes. That’s a big part of our strategy. In fact, launching the company, that was the strategy. COVID did a slight change in that. John, we’re in a lot of great restaurants. You look at Miami and New York, LA, all across the country, we’re in some of the top restaurants from [inaudible] to Delilah Hwood Group in LA.[crosstalk] Look at Miami, were in Komodo, number one restaurant in the country, Swan, [inaudible], a lot of colleges and universities selling Daring, but actually, beginning of last month, we’re already attached with Starbucks. We’ve been testing Starbucks products with Daring, of course, for the last few months, and the feedback has been amazing. We’re hopeful that that progresses, but that’s been a really exciting opportunity for us, more and more people learning about Daring. I think, like I said, that bit falls into the real value proposition. I appreciate your feedback on the product. That is why I started the business. I was more of an athlete, growing up. I cared about health, cared about what I put in my body. I cared how I felt. When you look at the landscape of plant-based over the last three plus years, no one’s really looked at health. No one’s looked at macronutrients. Our product is 90 calories per serving, 14 grams of protein, zero net carbs, very low in fat, almost two grams, and that is what chicken is. It’s given to be the healthiest protein the world, that’s why people love it. It’s versatile and it’s healthy. No plant-based meat thus far has been versatile and healthy. It has been, yes, better for the world, yes, better for animal welfare, but not better for humans. That is what our mission is. I think that’s what the next wave of plant-based is. That’s the 2.0. You’re seeing headwinds in the category today. Fundamentally, products need to be better, and I think we’re spearheading that. I appreciate it. It’s how I feel. Your product can be put on a salad. It doesn’t need to be put in between a bun and two pieces of gluten. This is really different in the industry.

John: That’s really great. What’s your vision for 2023 and beyond? You have four products now When we talk again, and hopefully, we’ll do an interview in person in the coming 12 months as you enjoy and evolve and scale your journey. How many more products you want to get online in 2023 and 2024?

Ross: A number of TBD, but we’ll definitely double our product. We want to focus on different use cases. We want to get more convenience to the market. We’ve launched a ready-to-eat product within restaurants. Right now, we’re frozen. If we think about the future of Daring, maybe it’s more convenient, maybe it’s already cooked, maybe it’s already about sauce or flavor. Next year, you’ll see more flavor expansion and more focus on versatility and convenience within our products.

John: Now, they have 11,000 doors in the United States and some of the greatest brands in terms of restaurants and hospitality chains. How do you set your sights on international growth? What’s the right way to do this without the wheels coming off?

Ross: I’m a big believer in just do one thing really well and earn the right to be building international business, 100 billion dollar wholesale chicken market. Plant-based, as a whole, isn’t even a billion dollar business. Plant-based chicken is a couple hundred million. We’re not scratching the surface. Let’s stay focused. Let’s stay as lean as possible. Let’s not get over skis[?]. We got a lot of work to do in the US before we start building an international supply chain. It is definitely a goal of mine, but I [crosstalk] think we got to stay focused right now.

John: I totally agree with you. You stay hyperfocused on the mission. The world will be the path to your door.

Ross: Yeah, build a great brand and you can pump innovation all-day.

John: I’m almost 30 years older than you so I’m fascinated as you as a young entrepreneur that has, “Let me just share with you”, amazing instincts. You were born to do this. I’m glad you left tennis and became an entrepreneur because in the entrepreneur industry, you would be what we call a “sure thing” because you got it in you. You already have it in you. How are you leveraging social media? It wasn’t a thing when I was 31 years old and an entrepreneur. How does social media play into you gaining more ground in the analog world with doors and with restaurants, and things of that such?

Ross: Personally or through the brand?

John: Through the brand. How do you manage your social media needs through the brand, and is it something that you saw as a huge need or is it just a want and on the to-do list after you create a great product and after you get traction?

Ross: It’s a fine line of really focusing on what moves the needle. We don’t sell online. It’s not like we’re steering consumers on to our website to buy a bundle online. This platform is really about showcasing recipes. It’s about showcasing different retailers, showcasing different use case experiences. For us, that team is led by a phenomenal individual, Laura, on our team. She’s doing a great job of building the brand, showcasing the type of lifestyle that our consumers are having. I apologize while I plug my laptop charger in, but I think it’s very important. Brands still win in this place. In the space, we’re in the consumer packaged goods business. This is not a commodity. It needs to look sexy, it needs to look cool. It need to look as inspirational. I think today, plant-based meat is still going through a difficult time and really shaping that kind of brand you want to be. It’s a great place for education. It’s a great place to show consumers, one, how to cook it, and two, educate on why Daring and why plant-based. We love playing around with that. We’re still testing and learning. For me, personally, LinkedIn is a big platform. It’s a great place to connect. It’s a great place to get media out. I think it’s underutilized, and I’m still learning it, as well. Those are the two main focuses for us.

John: Funny, you say that. LinkedIn is, by far, my favorite platform, and the most valuable. I found this [crosstalk]. Your thoughts on the future of the plant-based market, both in terms of restaurants and also what you’re doing, creating great products and getting them into consumers’ hands so they have more options.

Ross: Yeah, I think it’s obvious. You just have to turn on the news or LinkedIn, even, to see the different headwinds that this category is facing. I see this by absolutely no means do I mean to bash different brands or products, but I think when you look at the disconnect between the consumption data of why people are choosing plant-based and what brands are messaging, there’s a disconnect. What I mean is 70 plus percent of consumers are stepping into plant-based to be healthier, to eat less meat, to lose weight, to lower cholesterol. They’re made with products, fundamentally, that are higher in X and Y, sodium, calories, fat, ingredients, so there’s that disconnect. I think when that is a consumer’s experience, should time consumption data may fall, what is needed is a new wave of innovation, a new wave of products, 2.0, like the technology world evolved, so did plant-based evolved.

John: Right.

Ross: You think of the apps and the platforms we used to use, you would have dumped them now. It needs Innovation, and that is what I think we’re doing. My outlook is extremely optimistic. I think it has been a difficult time for retailers and restaurants to know which one to choose. I think this tough time will fundamentally be unfortunate for many brands as they may be [inaudible] or fade away, but the one thing I think is needed is just more tasty, healthier, great products. Individuals like me and you talking about it, allowing people to pick it up at a Starbucks or a Walmart, it doesn’t matter where. It used to be only Erehwon and Whole Foods. Now, you can get it at Walmart, and then a supply chain is required, more and more investment into the domestic supply chain. I think a lot of brands suffer to make product in one area, a packet in one area, breaded in another area, across the country, and that obviously affects price on shelf and margin. A lot of things are required, but I’m extremely excited to see what the next couple of years show.

John: Obviously, extremely excited to continue to see your journey unfold and to meet you in person, and we’ll do a live interview. Maybe we’ll even do a live cooking interview one day in LA [crosstalk] in the near future. I’d love to do that. I think that would be a lot of value for our listeners and viewers to listen to that. Again, let’s give a shout out to… you have 11,000 doors, Amazon Fresh, Gopuff, Instacart, Sunbasket, Hungryroot, Imperfect Foods, Target, Whole Foods, Albertsons, Walmart, and Kroger. You can find these great Daring products. I dare you to try Ross’ delicious, great, chicken plant-based products. You’re going to feel better. Your life will be better. You don’t have to eat plant-based all the time. Just integrate it into your diet. Ross, you are making such a positive impact on this planet. Thank you for being a guest on the Impact Podcast. You’re always welcome back, and I wish you continued success in your journey.

Ross: John, thank you for the wonderful plug. I appreciate the conversation. Look forward to having you to our office, try some new innovation. We’ll definitely have that cook-off. Thanks to your listeners for tuning in. I appreciate it.

John: This episode of the Impact Podcast is brought to you by Closed Loop Partners. Closed Loop Partners is a leading circular economy investor in the United States with an extensive network of Fortune 500 corporate investors, family offices, institutional investors, industry experts, and impact partners. Closed Loop’s platform spans the arc of capital from Venture Capital to private equity, bridging gaps and fostering synergies to scale the circular economy. To find Closed Loop Partners, please go to www.ClosedLoopPartners.com. This edition of the Impact Podcast is brought to you by Engage. Engage is a digital booking platform, revolutionizing the talent booking industry. With thousands of athletes, celebrities, entrepreneurs, and business leaders, Engage is the go-to spot for booking talent for speeches, custom experiences, livestreams, and much more. For more information on Engage or to book talent today, visit letsengage.com.

John Shegerian: Listen to the Impact Podcast on all your favorite podcast platforms, including Apple iTunes, Google Podcasts, Amazon Music, iHeartRadio, Audible, Spotify, Stitcher and of course at impactpodcast.com. This edition of the Impact Podcast is brought to you by ERI. ERI has a mission to protect people, the planet and your privacy, and is the largest fully integrated IT and electronics asset disposition provider and cybersecurity focused hardware destruction company in the United States, and maybe even the world. For more information on how ERI can help your business properly dispose of outdated electronic hardware devices, please visit eridirect.com. This edition of the Impact Podcast is brought to you by Engage. Engage is a digital booking platform, revolutionising the talent booking industry. With thousands of athletes, celebrities, entrepreneurs and business leaders, Engage is the go-to spot for booking talent, for speeches, custom experiences, livestreams and much more. For more information on Engage or to book talent today, visit letsengage.com.

John: Welcome to another edition of the Impact Podcast. I’m John Shegerian, and I’m so honored to have with us today, Ron Jarvis. He’s the Chief Sustainability Officer at Home Depot. Welcome to the Impact Podcast, Ron.

Ron Jarvis: Thank you, John. It is my pleasure to be here. Looking forward to it.

John: Well, this is a true honor. We’ve been doing this almost 15 years. We’ve never had the honor of having you or your iconic and great brand, which is so important to the American public and the American retail landscape on with us. So, this is just going to be a delightful day today, to have you share the Home Depot sustainability Journey. But before we get into that Ron, can you share a little bit about your own Journey? Where did you grow up? And how you even begin this journey of where you are today?

Ron: Certainly. Well, at least I’ll try to hit it, John. I grew up in North Carolina. It’s interesting, my mother, when I was in high school, went to work for one of our competitors. So when I was in high school college, I started working at the competitor in the summer. Driving forklifts, waiting on customers. Then after I graduate from college, I went to work for that competitor and ended up moving up through the company, was there for about 11 years. When I left, I was running the number of building materials departments as a merchant and a marketing specialist. So I came to Home Depot in 1995, in the beginning of 1995. At that point, Home Depot had different divisions. I think we had 10 different divisions. I moved to the Tampa division, which had responsibility for Florida stores, the Carolina stores and the Caribbean. So very interesting market. I was a product merchandise manager. Product merchandise managers are responsible for buying the product. But the reason Home Depot does not call their merchants buyers is because the merchants have to be in the stores a lot. In those days, in 1995, we were in the stores, three to four days a week, waiting customers, looking at our presentation, looking at our product here in the feedback from the associates and the customers about the products that you’re buying. So a tremendous amount of time on the floor with, an apron on, waiting on customers. So great way to understand what your product decisions mean to the associates and also to the customer. I was product merchandise manager for, I think five years in Tampa, I was promoted to divisional merchandise manager. So I’ve had most of the departments inside of the company as either a product merchandise, a visual merchandise manager, or a merchandising vice president. So I’ve had probably 80% of the department’s responsibility working for the customer to get the right products, negotiating deals, setting retails, setting bypacks. In 2000 I was asked by one of our founders, which he got named Pat Farah, he called me one day and said, “We really need someone to step in and help us on the environmental side. And since you had so much experience with wood and wood pursuing the building materials, we think you’re the guy.” This was on a Saturday. He said, “Your first meeting in first presentation is Monday, so be in Atlanta and be prepared.” So I said, “Okay, I’ll take the job since I’m already penciled in.” So I stepped in as a Global Environmental Product Manager. That was in 2000. So I stepped into a hornet’s nest. We’d had 600 protests in about 18 months, lots of issues around with purchasing, and I suggest we come back to that at some point. Then in 2001, I was promoted to a merchandising vice president. So I had a responsibility for lumber and building materials at the time. 2007, promoted to senior vice president of contractor sales and tool rental. Now, from 2000 to 2007, I still had all the environmental stuff.

John: You were juggling a bunch of titles.

Ron: Yes. I was wearing two very important hats. Ever since 2000, I’ve had sustainability and environmental concerns. Since 2007 I’ve shared contractor sales, tool rental, I’ve picked up product safety, I have utility rebates, so any rebates that utility company decides to put out on a refrigerator, or water savings toilet my group handles that. Then we also have product safety and oversee all of the overseas audits for responsible sourcing for factories that manufacture products for Home Depot under the private brand.

John: Wow. When were you named Chief Sustainability Officer?

Ron: It was probably three to four years ago. But the work and everything else didn’t change.

John: Right. It’s so fascinating because back in 2000 there wasn’t such a title as Chief Sustainability Officer.

Ron: No.

John: But the fact of the matter is, as retailers go, you were very early into this by taking that role on in 2000.

Ron: Oh, we were. At that point, I was, well, and probably still today, the only person that has had that position and be under the merchandising group. Most of the environmental positions are either under compliance, or legal, or some other operational side of the business. Pat Farra said, “For this job to be effective, you have to be under the regime of the people that are buying the products since we’re a retail. So you need to be a merchandising.” It was a stroke of genius.

John: It’s funny, I was sitting in a meeting years ago with the gentleman who was named chief sustainability officer of one of the big AT&T or Verizon type of companies. He juggled chief sustainability officer and he was then the chief supply chain officer and I said, “Well, that doesn’t make sense.” He goes, “John, let me explain to you why it makes perfect sense.” What you’re saying Pat was right on target in terms of having you handle both, it makes so much sense. It’s so interesting, because really just now the whole world is really catching on to ESG, circular economy, but you’ve got 22 years underneath your belt. So what’s so interesting, Ron, is we’ve been doing this show since 2007. We’ve had the luck and the honor to interview so many chief sustainability officers, or folks that were in charge of the environment for great brands around the world. So one of my favorite questions to ask you is, you’re faced with so many fascinating challenges. How, as where you sit with a global brand that’s so iconic and so important to the world at large, how do you strata and choose among the different opportunities and challenges that you have in the chair that you sit in as Chief Sustainability Officer of Home Depot?

Ron: Yeah. John, one of the things that became very obvious to me in the beginning, and by the beginning, I think back of 1993, 1995, 1996, Home Depot won the President’s Award for sustainability from President Clinton. Thinking 1996, who was talking about sustainability at that time? No one.

John: No one.

Ron: As we put these programs together, we realized that there were thousands of touchpoints. Walk into a Home Depot store, look to the far left, you see the lumber, see plywood windows. Look to the far right, you see pesticides, herbicides, a lot of goods, lawnmowers and you go, “What are the environmental impacts?” Well, what are the environmental impacts? Every walk of life is represented in that store as far as what you’re doing for your habitat. We supply a basic human need, which is shelter. So it’s a thousands of environmental impacts. As I started dealing with these early, and the earliest issue that we worked on was wood purchasing and wood supply. But then as we saw those trickle in and trickle out, just in the wood supply, there’s scores of issues. Is there such thing in sustainability? Can you have sustainable forestry? We had a paint merchant come into me one time into my office and say, “You’re going to love me.” This was in 2001. I said, “Great. You’re the paint merchant, I probably am going to love you, whatever you’ve done, because it’s got to be good.” He said, “We’re only going to buy plastic paintbrushes.” I said, “Was that the love part?” He said, “Yeah.” He said, “No more trees. We’re not cutting any trees to manufacture any paintbrushes.”

John: Wow.

Ron: I said, “Time out.”

John: Yeah.

Ron: There’s probably the best replacement for wood, is sustainable wood.

John: Right.

Ron: So you look at that, that’s one touchpoint. Then you have pesticides, herbicides, energy, water use, noise pollution from leaf blowers, the fact that people spill 18 million gallons of gas a year when they’re filling up their lawn equipment. All those thousands of touchpoints. So I was able to pull everything down into five buckets. Those five buckets are carbon emissions, chemical exposure, deforestation, which we also include mining in that, water use, waste and recycling, which we now also call circularity. So all of a sudden, things started getting really clear to me that I go, “Okay, all the different things that we’re talking about, it’s going to fall into one of these five buckets.” Today, when you think of the emotionally charged issues, most of those are around carbon emissions. Think of climate change, global warming, control disaster increases. All the things that are happening, people are tying it to global warming and climate change. Well, that’s carbon emissions

John: Right.

Ron: So that’s a pretty big bucket. So we look at each one of these five and say, where does Home Depot play as an entity? So our operations, our stores, our distribution centers, our trucks, as an entity, what part do we play in each one of those five? We play part in all of those. Then you look at our supply chain and you go, “Okay, go upstream in the supply chain, what part does a factory setting in Mexico, or Iowa, or China have in carbon emissions and transportation and getting product to Home Depot?’ Well, we better know that and you need to know what those impacts are, and you need to know, are you a major player or a minor player? When you make a move, is it like a bull whip if you do this? Is it a huge slap, 10 feet down? Or is it very, very minor? So we look at product categories under those lens of those five product categories and say, how do we make sure that we minimize and continue to work to minimize the environmental impact?

John: What’s inspiring to me, Ron, and I’d love to hear how you did this, is since sustainability wasn’t a thing when Home Depot won that award in 1996, and even when you were made in charge of the environmental issues that were in and around in surrounding Home Depot in 2000, there was no blueprint. So how did you find your way in terms of creating the five buckets and getting on this journey? What were your paradigms or inspirations, or what blueprints were you looking at since it just wasn’t part of our lexicon or vernacular back then?

Ron: Yeah, it definitely wasn’t part of lexicon and everything was completely new. Everything was trial and error and you had a tremendous amount of pushback from every path that you took. As many people would tell you that it was right, they would tell you that it was wrong, whatever the issues were.

John: Of course.

Ron: Since I did step in, in 2000 in the wood issue, now picture this, we’d had 600 protests in 18 months, and the protests were around wood purchasing. What happened was, environmental groups in Vancouver Island wanted to cease and protect, which I’m completely for protecting old growth, where it needs to be protected, they needed a platform and they knew that a company like Home Depot would probably be that platform. So stepping in, I’ve never been in environmental issues, I didn’t go and study environmental studies. I’ve been a merchant. But what I did know was how to get stuff done and how to circle the wagons. So I stepped in and we’d had probably 36 month of activity around this. We’d hired consultants, we had a lot of people working on it, and they said, “Okay, now you’re in charge.” So I said, “Okay, first of all, let me get everyone together that’s working on this.” So I had a big meeting in Atlanta and I brought in the consultants. I think we had four different consulting groups, the four big ones, working on this and they were saying, “It’s going to be probably 18 to 36 months, it’s going to cost millions of dollars and we’re still trying to figure out how we’re going to do it.” So it really bothered me for a couple of days and I called them all back in and said, “We’re going to relieve you of your duties, we do not need consultants, so you guys can all go home.” Then I called the NGOs, and they were probably 12 environmental groups that were the core of this. I said, “Can you please come to Atlanta?” They hadn’t been able to talk to most of the people at Home Depot because they didn’t have someone in this position in [inaudible]. So they said, “Yeah, we would love to.” So it took about six weeks, but I got all of them into Atlanta. We started at 7:00 AM in the morning in the store across the street. They were all mostly West Coast, so it was like four o’clock in the morning for them. But we started seven and we walked the store. For the entire day, I said, “We’re going to stop at all the different wood products. You tell me what the issues are. You tell me what your concerns are.” They went back to the office, we sat down. So for another day and a half, we just went through every issue they had. So they spilled the beans, “This is what we love,” “This is what we hate,” “This is where you’re right,” “This is where you’re wrong,” “This is where the big unknowns are.” I said, “Okay, I’m going to ask you, for 24 months, no protests. We’ll have dialogue but no protests for 24 months. Give me time to research this and we will come back with a plan.” They said, “Okay.” So we took two parallel paths. The first one was to find everything in the store that had wood in it. Is it a two before [?]? Is it a hammer handle? Is it an ax handle? Is it a fan blade?

John: Wow.

Ron: What has it? We thought it was going to be around five or 600 items, ended up being over 9,000. So we had 9,000 items inside the store that we needed to find where does it come from? What’s the species? Are there any issues with those countries? So it took us two years to do that. But at the end of those two years, we called those groups back together. We met at the NRDC headquarters in San Francisco in their basement and I handed everyone in the room a book. Inside that book was transparency of Home Depot’s wood, by department, and by country. If you want to look at Brazil, here’s what we buy from Brazil. If you want to look at the flooring department, here’s where it comes from. So after that, a lot of good relationships came from that. Instead of a catalyst that we were used to make things happen, we became a partner at the seat, at the table.

John: Well, you found a brilliant way by asking for that space to do the work that you wanted and needed to do, you found a way of building a bridge of trust.

Ron: At the end of that bridge of trust, John was facts and data and information that they could only guess at before.

John: Right.

Ron: So they were appreciative that all of a sudden they had insight. All of a sudden we were the most knowledgeable person at the table.

John: That’s really interesting.

Ron: So it became an educational moment for all of us. So I came back and thought about this for about a year. During that time, right after this is when I was promoted and I now had environmental and the business side. So I was the merchandising vice president over the lumber building materials and that disrupted everyone, because the NGOs were saying, “Okay, what’s the deal now? We’ve got a business guy, Home Depot, running the environmental department who is not an environmental scientist, he’s a business guy.” All of a sudden the business was saying, “Wait a minute, Home Depot, you can’t take your environmental person and put them over lumber purchasing, that’s just not going to work.” But again, it was a stroke of genius for us because on Monday I could sit down and listen to Greenpeace and Rainforest Action Network and all these different folks talk about, ‘Here’s what we need to do.” On Tuesday I could sit down with warehouses and Georgia-Pacific and they could say, “This is what we’re doing.” On Wednesday, I had the power to get them both together and say, “Now let’s go talk about it.” We made some big, big transitions during that period of our wood purchasing, where it came from, certified wood, moved quite a few programs that weren’t certified into certified programs. So it worked really well. John, to get your point, that’s how we said we’re going to do it that way for every environmental issue, we’re going to do the grassroots movement. Whatever it is, we’re going to find out the science, we’re going to find out the business behind it, we’re going to find the emotional ties that you have to these because every environmental concern you have has a tremendous amount of emotional ties to it, and then we’re going to try to build the bridge of trust.

John: That’s great.

Ron: At the end of the day, then we may not do what everyone wants us to, but everyone will know where we stand and why we stand there.

John: Ron, this is just brilliant. I mean, this is really inspiring. Since you have 22 years of history and data and facts put together now, which is rare because brand most brands are just getting with it right now and playing a lot of catch up, since part of sustainability now, part of this whole ESG movement and the shift from the linear to circular economy sort of requires this need of radical transparency, which you were already doing back in 2000 when you produced that book for those NGOs, how do you produce an annualized book now that shows to the world both constituents, analysts, wall street, media, et cetera, what you’re doing now and how you’re going about doing that?

Ron: Well, we had our first responsibility report in 2009.

John: Wow.

Ron: So they’re 13 years ago when the first responsibility reported. As we started pushing that out, I basically, for the first four or five years just to sat down and wrote the whole thing. I would go sit down with the subject matter experts and the business leaders and say, “Here’s what the world needs to know on diversity.” “Here’s what the world needs to know what we’re doing on purchasing.” “Here’s what the world needs to know.” We look at confidence, how much of our wood comes from North America? So we put a lot of that information into the responsibility report, and that’s what we continue to do. We also have a website called Eco Actions Website that we put a lot of information and transparent, because we’re a true believer that transparency is the right answer. That if you’re doing something, if you find something that needs to be changed, change it. There’s a lot of options out there, there’s a lot of opportunities to make things better and to improve. So just continue to do that. Consumers won’t beat you up because you’re trying to do better. So we do have a, it’s called ESG Report Today that we have out there, we put a lot of this information in it. We’re completing more reports in 2023 that’s going to have even more transparency than we have now. We believe in being transparent.

John: For our audience out there, if you just joined us, we’ve got Ron Jarvis with us today. He’s the Chief Sustainability Officer at Home Depot. To find Ron and his great colleagues and the work that they do at Home Depot at sustainability and everything else you could go to www.homedepot.com. Ron, the things have changed in 22 years, as you know, what major challenges today, comparatively speaking it from 2000 where it was all around wood and it was first of all around wood, but then it evolved into 9,000 products, those first precious two years, where are you today and what kind of challenges, I don’t know, keep you up? Because you’ve seen a lot of things in 22 years, but what challenges are you facing today that you weren’t facing back then?

Ron: Well, there’s definitely the challenges of more interest. I always call it 10 cupping. So from 2009 until probably 2018, everything that you could get for support inside of ESG had to be bag and borrowed. Since then, there’s a lot of support on the ESG side and a lot of folks involved, which is great, the more the merrier. But one thing that we’ve seen that’s changed, to your point John, is the transparency. Not only transparency, but also the information.

John: Right.

Ron: In 2007, I remember setting a meeting with some store associates and they were saying, ‘Hey, you know, earth Day’s coming up and we want to highlight products.” Now we had a program with a company out of Oakland, California called SCS to where they would validate environmental claims for Home Depot. I think they first started doing it in 1997. So they would validate environmental claims. So somebody says, “Hey, this product makes the grass greener” we’d have to validate it through SCS.

John: It would be your third party auditor, in other words?

Ron: Yes.

John: Okay. Got it.

Ron: But what we found was in the store, as you walk through the aisle, there were a ton of claims on products and customers didn’t know and the associates didn’t know exactly what those claims meant. So we said, we’re going to create an Eco Options program, so we’re going to identify these products that really do have less of an impact on the environment than standard products. We said, “Okay, how’s the best way to start this?” I said, “Well, let’s do like we did the wood purchasing. Let’s send a lot of information to our suppliers. Let the suppliers tell us what they’re doing.” Well, at the time, we had about 135,000 different items in the Home Depot portfolio. The average store carried about 35 to 40,000 items. So we set this out. When it came back, 76,000 items were green from our suppliers. I go, “Wow, this is going to be the easiest thing I’ve ever done, 76,000.” But I said, “We’re going to put a filter on top of each one of these, and you’re going to have to meet this bar before we’re going to say that your Eco Options.” Like for instance, recycled content, you had to be 100% post-consumer recycle content to be considered green in Eco Options. So that 76,000, after we put the filter on it was 2,000.

John: Wow.

Ron: Seventy-four-thousand was what I consider to be voodoo marketing around green. That part is still happening today. So you see a lot of environmental claims where people go, “Well, this is great because of x.” We have companies that come to us all the time and they go, “You’re going to love this new product. It is a new green widget and here’s why.” So the first thing that I do when I talk to suppliers is I go, “You have to tell us what the biggest environmental impact is for your product.” Is it paint and indoor air quality and dermal uptake? Is it carpet, which is dermal uptake and some indoor air quality? Is it wood products for deforestation? Is it concrete for carbon emissions? So whatever your issue is, that’s how you lead the story when you talk to us. So we’ve had companies come into us and say, “Our new green model is, we have a green widget because we have smaller pallets in the truck and we’re getting more products on the truck.” They go, “Yeah, but your products are not carbon emissions related. It is dermal uptake, or it’s deforestation, or it’s something else.” So today it’s tough to look at all the difficulties. Every company has some type of environmental platform today.

John: Sure.

Ron: So it’s going through those and saying, yeah, but what really is impactful to your product? And are you addressing that issue?

John: So you’ve created an algorithm scoring system, which continually, in a gentle way, forces your suppliers to continually improve if they want to get the right type of visibility at Home Depot. Is that the right way to put that?

Ron: It’s not a software program that’s an algorithm.

John: Okay.

Ron: It is just looking at the industries.

John: Understood.

Ron: In this industry it is this and this is what you need to be focused on.

John: Got it. You have a team of folks underneath you that are handling the scoring and doing the explanation to these suppliers on a regular basis?

Ron: What we do is, and concrete built the world, I mean, it’s done a lot of good things, but it’s also pretty carbon intensive, so we’re in constant dialogue with the large manufacturers around concrete saying, “What are you working on? Are you going to have a substitute for clinker?” Or you come up with something that’s a better adhesive. So those type of conversations that we’re having. We also have very good merchants. The great thing about sustainability, probably 10 to 11 years ago, sustainability became a competitive measurement among industries. So whenever you’re going to pitch to a retailer, or even if you’re selling tires to an automobile company, when you go in, you’re going to pitch whatever your sustainability pitch is for that. When that happened, I saw it because I was there and we didn’t have that, all of a sudden I slept better at night because I know that when company A comes in and they know that they’re going to be followed by company B that may have a better widget than they do on the sustainability side, they’re going to do everything they can to improve their product. So when competitive measurement moved into the boardroom, then everything moved quicker. Today, when you look at reduced energy, reduced water use, single-use plastic reduction, shipping closer to point of distribution, shipping in non single-use plastic but cardboard, every single company today is working on that, where 15 years ago they weren’t.

John: All about the issues around green energy and stuff, are you constantly looking for different sources of more renewable energy to power the great heat Home Depot stores that you and your colleagues are managing and in charge of?

Ron: We do. John, energy is a part of the carbon emissions bucket.

John: Yeah.

Ron: I look at carbon emissions, I’m not a scientist, but I understand that there’s climate change always. There’s just a constant flux of climate change, and the question is, is man expediting the climate change? Home Depot doesn’t have a position on that. I personally say, yeah, we probably are. You can’t have this much pollution and not affect something. So I look at this and go, we need to prioritize what our five buckets are as a society, not Home Depot, not Ron and John, but as a society.

John: You’re right.

Ron: Which one of these are the most important? Now the unfortunate thing about ESG, and I hope no one takes this the wrong way, but in a certain way I feel like the S and the G is hijacked in E, because all of a sudden there’s a thousand touchpoints inside of ESG that everyone’s working on.

John: Great point.

Ron: If we think climate change is the biggest concern, then if we would put all our focus on that, we could probably fix a lot of the carbon emission issues because it’s the combustible engine, it’s the power grid. We could probably fix that a lot faster if it was a single focus instead of a thousand point focus. So we look at this and go, “Okay, so where do we play in carbon emissions?” So we track our Scope 1, 2, and 3 and I assume you’re familiar with those. So we know that as a company, how much carbon we knit from things that we own. We know from the utilities that we buy from for Scope 2. We’ve been tracking Scope 1 and 2. I did the first report on Scope 1, 2 and partial 3 in 2008. So we’ve been tracking this for years. We know where our improvements. The great thing, when we look at carbon emissions as a store in our distribution centers for Scope 1 and 2, and we also track category four, which is upstream transportation in those carbon emission numbers for the core of the company, since 2009, since we did the first report, we’ve reduced those carbon emissions by around three million metric tons. So think about that. Three million metric tons, not 100, not 10,000, not 150,000, but three million metric tons.

John: Wow.

Ron: These are absolute metric tons. During that same time, we’ve gone from 60 billion to 152 billion in sales.

John: So your explosive growth plus also the offsets you’ve created is unbelievably impressive.

Ron: Yes. We’ve done it by running a better business. In 2003, we were running about 26.5 kilowatts per square foot on an angle basis of our sales floor, today we’re around 11.8. So we’ve gone from 26 kilowatts to 11.8 by running a better business. We didn’t do it by offsets, we didn’t do it by intensity, we did it by running a better business. We think that’s key. We think that in sustainability, you have to walk the talk. If you’re going to ask your suppliers, if you’re going to ask customers to make sacrifices or make changes, you have to say, “And here’s how we did it.” We look at customers on and we go, “Okay, as a 520,000 square foot store, we’ve taken our energy use from 26 to 11 per square foot. Here’s how you do it. You go with energy star refrigerators, you go with high-E, low-E windows, you do super caulking, you do flex ceiling, things like this so you can reduce those impacts and you also have a tremendous improvement to your operational monthly cost of running your home.”

John: I assume because of where you reside and the great brand that you’re involved with, that’s Home Depot, you at some point crossed paths with the legendary Ray Anderson.

Ron: Oh yes. That is a great segue into one of the paths that Home Depot took in the beginning. I don’t know if you’re familiar with the Natural Step?

John: No. Tell me. Share more.

Ron: The Natural Step was started in Sweden by Dr. Karl Robèrt.

John: Okay.

Ron: Dr. Robèrt was a pediatric oncologist. He kept seeing all of these children coming into his clinic with cancer and terminal cancer and he said, “It’s increasing, it’s getting worse in Sweden. So I’m going to stop my practice and look at what we’re doing as a society and what is causing this.” So he created a program called The Natural Step, and it’s still out there today. In 2000, we brought the Natural Step into the Home Depot. We took our entire leadership team through a year and a half process of learning the Natural Step. Ray Anderson was the first one to bring it to Atlanta. So we’d actually picked it up from Ray in what he was doing at Interface at the time. So we were so lucky. The Natural Step had hired three people, one is now Jib Ellison, I don’t know if you’ve ever heard of Jib. He has a company called Blu Sky Strategies in California.

John: Absolutely.

Ron: Katherine Gray, who is a leader in sustainability, and Dr. George Basile at Arizona State. Now, these were three underlings that it brought in to try to help Ray Anderson and Home Depot understand the Natural Step, three geniuses in my mind. So the Home Depot was so fortunate to have those three there directing us, saying, here’s what you need to do as a company, and here’s how you bring sustainability into a multi-faceted 9,000, 10,000 supplier business by backcasting to find out what’s happening upstream that could be causing deforestation, could be causing excess chemicals, could be causing all these different issues that you’re facing today. The way you get to the root of it is to backcast. So yes, we are familiar with Ray.

John: Ray back in the day he appeared on our show and he was one of the most delightful human beings I’ve ever come across and was a great interview and just unbelievably inspirational, which, of course we’ve pushed on. What you’re great at Ron, what I’ve realized during this interview is that, you’re really amazing at taking complex ideas, complex issues, challenges, and synthesizing them down and creating a simplicity around them that makes it understandable by all. So if you were to take a message that you want your Home Depot customers, which of course are all of our listeners and our audience out there around the world that’s had the benefit and the opportunity to enjoy your great brand, what would be the message that you want them to take away today about the 22 years of work you and your great colleagues have been working on at Home Depot around sustainability, circularity, and those very important topics?

Ron: Well, probably the message would be that just know that there’s someone inside the company, some groups inside of the company that are looking at what the issues are and to put that in practice. After we got through Eco Options, we had products out there, it was still 10% of the total. So as I would walk through a store to take a new merchant or reporter to go talk about the Eco Options products, I’d walk past 90% of the product to show, “Hey, look at this certified something,” or, “Look at this new low flow toilet.” What I realized is that, even though we’re walking through stuff that’s good to get to the stuff that’s great, what about the stuff that’s good? So I was in a store with a group of merchants one day and I said, “Here’s what, let’s do.” Let’s stop buying green products. Let’s just stop. Now let’s go green the products that we buy beause that will be much more impact. So I had a group of six environmental scientists, and I don’t want to call their names because I haven’t warned them I was going to talk about this, in the office in 2014, these are all leaders in environmental science, building about science. I said, “Let’s play out a role here. If we could switch jobs and you were the CSO of Home Depot and you could do anything you wanted to, what would you do? And tell me what you do as a group.” I got my pad out expecting just to rapid fire and they didn’t hardly say a word. So they finally got together and they said, “Can we come back after work?” I said, “Yeah.” I said, “My last meeting ends at five, so be back at five o’clock.” So they went across the street to La Quinta and they came back at five o’clock. I was thinking about it all day during my meetings, okay, is it going to be pesticides? Is it going to be recycled carpet? Is it going to be certified wood? What is their issue they’re going to come back with? Because I know what all the issues are. They came back and they sat down and they said, “Okay, we’ve got it.” I said, “What would you do?” They said, “It’ll be vinyl flooring.” I go, “What?” They go, “Vinyl flooring.” I’ve been doing this for 14 years at the time. I said, “I’ve never had one person, NGO, stakeholder, associate ever say anything bad about vinyl flooring.” I said, “Is it the PVC?” They go, “No, it’s orthophthalates.” They go, “If we could do anything, we would take orthophthalates out of vinyl flooring.” I go, “Why?” They said, “Well, it’s the plasticizer, it’s what makes orthophthalates bend, it’s what makes the vinyl bend, and think of where Home Depot sells orthophthalates or vinyl flooring, it goes into daycares and nurseries.” I go, “Well, there’s no real science around it, an EPA. I mean, there’s nothing that says we need to do that.” They go, “But you ask us. As environmental scientists, there’s one thing we could do what we do and that’s what we do.” So when they left, we had six vinyl flooring vendors at the time and so I called them and I said, “Suppose we wanted to take orthophthalates out of vinyl flooring. So three of them said, “You can, but you’re going to be about 20 to 30% above your competition. You’re going to stop selling vinyl flooring. Everybody else is going to go other places to buy because you’re going to be too high.” Three said that. Two said, “We’ve actually looked at some of the replacements and we know they’re out there, but they’re way too expensive.” The sixth one came in and said, “I’ve ran two lines and you don’t lose efficacy of the product, it works just as well. Everything looks and acts just the same. The only problem is, the replacement chemical is a little high.” So I reached out to who was the company that was most of their chemical supplier and said, “If you had the type of volume here as you do today with this, what would happen to the price?” They go, “It go down probably below where you are today.”

John: Wow.

Ron: So May, 2015 Home Depot announced that all of their vinyl flooring is worth of the value at three. Now, was it big news? Did sales go up? Was it certified? No, none of that happened. But because of information that we’d gotten and we looked and said it’s something that can be done, and as we’ve looked, we’ve made similar moves to that in the past, so my message would be, to the customers, we’re looking for things, when we find things, we want to act to make a better world through better products.

John: So that’s just further proof that the journey is never done and it continues on. So if the journey’s continuing on and you’ve got 22 years already behind you, what’s next? What’s next for you, your colleagues and Home Depot in the sustainability journey, Ron?

Ron: Well, I think what’s next is other companies will be more transparent, and other companies I mean our suppliers, to where, if you’re a homeowner or a contractor or just an interested citizen, that you’ll be able to go in and say, “Okay, I’m looking at an ashtray or a table. I want to know what’s the deal here?” Where does the wood come from? How much water was used? What about the fasteners? What about the the paint? And that we’ll have scanability programs, and there’s some out there today to where at least products that you may have a concern with, you can get the answer and you get the right answer and then as a consumer, you can make the choice. Is this a product I want to support? Do I want to be a purchase activist and make my statement from what I buy based on the knowledge that I have? Yes, I think we all do. I think the next step is that, as a society, we’ll get to the point to where we know that information.

John: Ron, thank you so much for all the great work you’ve done the last 22 years and the work that you’re going to be doing in the future, you are truly making a tremendous impact and making the world a better place. For our listeners and viewers, to find Ron Jarvis and his colleagues and to find the local Home Depot near you so we could support great brands that are doing important things and making big impacts in sustainability, please go to their website, homedepot.com. Ron Jarvis, you’re always welcome back to share the journey that you’re on in sustainability and thank you again for making the world a better place.

Ron: Thank you, John. Thank you for the opportunity.

John: This episode of the Impact Podcast is brought to you by Closed Loop Partners. Closed Loop Partners is a leading circular economy investor in the United States with an extensive network of Fortune 500 corporate investors, family offices, institutional investors, industry experts and impact partners. Closed Loop’s platform spans the arc of capital from venture capital to private equity, bridging gaps and fostering synergies to scale the circular economy. To find Closed Loop Partners, please go to www.closedlooppartners.com. This edition of the Impact Podcast is brought to you by ERI. ERI has a mission to protect people, the planet and your privacy, and is the largest fully integrated IT and electronic.

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John: Welcome to another edition of the Impact Podcast. This is a very special edition because I have not only Dallas Kingsbury, who’s an MD with us, Dr. Dallas Kingsbury, with us today, but he’s also a very good friend. Welcome to the Impact Podcast, Dallas.

Dallas Kingsbury, MD: Thank you, John. Appreciate it.

John: In another podcast on another date, we’re going to talk about some of those things I’m doing with you and also with your wife, Dr. Jane Danford. You’ve seen me and you’ve been my doctor, I think, going back down seven or eight years.

Dallas: Yeah.

John: I’m a huge fan of your work. So I just wanted to get that out there for our listeners to know that we’re already associated and we already get to work together. But this is very important, what you’re doing and why you’re doing it, and we’re going to get into that in a little bit. But before we get there, Dallas, go into a little bit of the background of the Dallas Kingsbury story. Where did you even grow up and what inspired you to become a doctor to start with?

Dallas: Yeah. Thank you, John. So I grew up in New Jersey. My first exposure to caring for patients was actually working with my dad, very early on, my dad, the chiropractor. I was always very interested in health and wellness. I went to Johns Hopkins University and college thinking I was going to do some kind of neuroscience research or some kind of research involving actually maybe either meditation or the effects of holistic medicine on health outcomes. Johns Hopkins was not doing anything like that at the time that I was there. Now actually a lot of big universities are doing that kind of research but not at that time. I actually asked a few friends and family for some thoughts, because I didn’t want to go in to become a neuroscience PhD, I didn’t love writing research papers as a full-time job. And so they said, “Do you have the credits? Can you go to medical school?” And I said, “Yeah, I think I could probably do that. From there I took a few extra courses and the next year applied and went to medical school. The funny thing about medical school is that most of my colleagues… I know you know many, many doctors, John, but a lot of medical students come in knowing… either their family members or doctors or they were heavily inspired by some physician interaction at some point and they kind of know, oh, I want to be a pediatrician. I’m going to be an oncology surgeon. I had none of that. I was doing well in medical school the first two years, and I go, I don’t really know what I want to do. Everyone’s going into their third year, it’s a big year, you’re doing all your clinical rotations, and I’m sitting there saying, I had no idea what kind of a doctor I want to be. So I took a year off. The deans at the medical school – Actually, this is Rutgers Medical School in New Jersey – said, “Sure you could take a year off. But please come back after this year.” I took a year off to do flying trapeze. It’s a whole nother story but I joined the circus.

John: Honestly, I have to tell our listeners, the first time I met you, I came into your office, I was all banged up from a bed slip and fall in Minneapolis or somewhere I’ve been traveling, [crosstalk] and all black and blue, and you took the utmost care to look after me and get me back on my feet again and tell me that everything’s going to be okay.

Dallas: I remember.

John: But at the end of that session, I remember so vividly, you started sharing with me the fact that you were a trapeze artist and you showed me some of the most incredible videos. I have to tell you. I was like, this guy is not only beyond impressive as a doctor, which you were and are, but you also were unbelievably fabulously athletic. You were doing things on the trapeze that I’ve rarely ever seen done before, then, or after. So you are a very talented trapeze artist. Let’s just say that.

Dallas: Thanks, John. Appreciate it. Well, I took that experience, and having done that for a year, and then actually having had friends go off to Cirque du Soleil and perform, I still went back to medical school. Through that time, I continued trapeze training and continued sort of in this acrobatic world and performance world, a little bit dabbling here and there. I really came to appreciate sports medicine, because so many of my friends and performers were getting injured, and they’d say, “Oh, you’re in medical school. Can you help out with my shoulder, my back, or my neck?” And I said, “Wait a minute. I already have a lot of experience seeing musculoskeletal injuries having been with my dad for years, as a chiropractor.” I said, “I think sports medicine might be the right place for me.” That’s what gave me the idea – let me do a sports medicine fellowship after doing a rehabilitation medicine residency, all in New York City. I kept doing flying trapeze, and that’s what got me on my way to at least the initial phase of my career.

John: Got it. And you became a doctor. Where I saw you originally was at NYU Langone. So you’re a doctor at NYU Langone where you are now still an assistant professor, but now [crosstalk] a Medical Director for Danford Works and Fountain Life Naples.

Dallas: Correct.

John: For those who want to find Danford Works, you can go to danfordworks.com or fountainlife.com. Go into that a little bit. How did you evolve, being what was a traditional but unbelievably talented and huge reputational doctor at NYU Langone, to the work you’re doing now with Danford Works and Fountain Life?

Dallas: Sure. So I can start off with whichever one you want to start off with first.

John: [inaudible] Here’s the book. By the way, for our listeners out there, this book is a fabulous book. It’s called Life Force. It’s been written by Dr. Peter Diamandis and Robert Hariri, and of course, Tony Robbins is all over it as well, and he’s the chief author of this book with these two great doctors. At the Naples center, you are the medical director. So it must be fascinating to be involved with these gentlemen and this [inaudible] work that you’re doing [crosstalk] as a medical director at Naples.

Dallas: Absolutely.

John: So let’s start there, and then we’ll work into what you’re doing with your brilliant wife, Jane Danford, as well.

Dallas: Perfect. Well, Fountain Life is a preventative health and longevity company committed to transforming global healthcare from reactive to proactive. I’ll get into what that means in a minute. it is proactive, data-driven. The idea is we’re trying to treat illnesses earlier than ever before. There are multiple Fountain Life centers, clinical centers people can come to to get diagnostic testing. There’s one in Naples, there’s one in Westchester, New York, and a new center that has just opened up in Frisco, Texas, and then for a center opening up in Lake Nona just at the end of the year. Lake Nona is right outside of Orlando. I came to Fountain Life basically after moving to Naples with my wife, Jane. It was a perfect fit. As soon as I interviewed for the job, because of my experience in rehabilitation and sports medicine, a lot of the clients coming to Fountain Life have various musculoskeletal orthopedic related injuries and they can’t essentially fulfill their goals in life with being injured, so that was a perfect fit. It’s easy to get caught in a system as a physician, I guess, and as a patient, where you just see so many people with major things missing in their healthcare. Looking at somebody from a comprehensive perspective, all at once. It was a wonderful opportunity for me to take that on. And so our center does a lot of diagnostic testing and comprehensive almost like an executive physical. And with all of that data, we are able to come up with an incredible, essentially, plan for people for improving their health and life.

John: Let’s talk a little bit about some of the more interesting and cutting edge tests that you have new clients, new patients come in and do. Talk about the… I think it’s called the GRAIL test that you’ve told me about, the cancer screening. You want to share that with our listeners?

Dallas: Sure. Yeah, and I’ll give you a little bit of background too, and just why we pick some of these tests to do. Our current healthcare model is essentially predicated on sick care. Somebody comes in with an active disease, active cancer, requiring acute treatment. For example, 70% of people who have a heart attack today never had any symptoms prior to that episode of chest pain, and 70% of people who die from cancer die from a cancer where there’s no current screening for. Everyone knows you can get a colonoscopy, you can get prostate cancer screening if you’re a male, or breast cancer and cervical cancer screening if you’re a woman. But other than that, we’re not screening people for liver cancer, gallbladder cancer, pancreatic cancer, ovarian cancer. If you take all of those cancers combined that 70% of people die from, we’re not screening for those. So Fountain Life, one of their missions is to pick a few diagnostic tests that can potentially catch or find and be able to treat those types of cancer that we don’t currently screen for much, much earlier than would have ever presented to a doctor. As you mentioned, there’s an early cancer detection blood test, two vials of blood, and it has about a 65% sensitivity for picking up cancers that are undetected by your general screening. And then we follow that up with a full body MRI. Essentially, the protocols for the MRI are designed to, again, minimize false positives and pick up cancer as well as other things. I’ll give you some more statistics. We’ve scanned about 4000 people so far at Fountain Life, and about 2% of them had some kind of cancer, and 2% of them had a brain aneurysm that they didn’t know about.

John: Wow.

Dallas: About 14% of them had some type of fatty liver disease or elevated liver iron, again, that people had no idea about. And then in terms of our other testing, about 40 to 50% of people had some form of pre-diabetes. So it’s a lot of data that we gather on people; like you mentioned, cancer was a big one of them. We’ve been able to intervene and of course refer clients to either surgeons or oncologists, and intervene much earlier than would have been possible, because these are asymptomatic.

John: When you first told me about this a year ago, and you said it takes about two weeks to get your results once you take the test?

Dallas: Two to four weeks. Yeah.

John: Okay. But I thought about wow, how scary. But then when you explained it to me that if you’re going to think of cancer as a forest fire, it’s better to catch it when there’s one tree on fire than when there’s a thousand trees on fire.

Dallas: Exactly.

John: So, the repetitive nature of finding someone when they’re between 0 and 1 on the cancer scale than when they’re at 4 massively improves their chances of survival and thriving, right?

Dallas: By a huge amount. The statistics are somewhere around, let’s say, if you can catch cancer at stage one, five year survival is about 90% [inaudible] cancer, right? And so that’s extraordinarily good. Whereas if you catch cancer at later stages: stage three, stage four, we’re talking about less than a 25% survival rate. If you just pick lung cancer, we’re talking 5% five year survival rate. So being able to pick up early cancer at stage one or stage two is, I think, paramount for… Again, depending on an individual philosophy. It’s a little challenging to get into the concept of, well, how could we possibly do this for everyone and a full body MRI for everybody, that’s impossible. I think the difference between precision personalized medicine versus population medicine is a wonderful debate. I think at some point, as a society, we will hopefully get there where everybody has access to some kind of life changing technology like this. But we’re really in the earliest phases of this. So it’s really fascinating. But no, unfortunately, it’s a slow process to figure out how to make this accessible to everybody. But at this point, I mean, we’ve had some amazing success stories on the people that have come through.

John: Those tests, as you just said, a full body MRI, the GRAIL… How about the DEXA? You recently had me take the DEXA. We’re not going to go into that today. But I find it’s life changing and fascinating why you had me do the DEXA, and already feeling the benefits from it. Share about what you do with the DEXA scan.

Dallas: DEXA is traditionally a bone density test. DEXA stands for Dual X-ray Absorptiometry, which is essentially a very low radiation, full body X-ray. The radiation is, essentially, like from flying here to LA, half the distance between from Florida to LA. [crosstalk]

John: The minimum [inaudible] radiation.

Dallas: Correct. It’s an incredibly small amount of radiation. But it’s a full body X-ray, done in a particular way that can, one, tell you your bone density, and two, tell you your body composition, of course, if the scanner is capable of that. It’s incredibly helpful. And this is not new. This is actually not leveraging advanced artificial intelligence enhanced technology like we do have at Fountain Life. This is actually a very underutilized piece of tech that’s been around for a few decades now. I’d have to probably get the opinion of a whole lot of other people out there who’ve been in the fitness and health industry for a long time as to why it’s been so underutilized. You get a lot of data out of it. But knowing a few key metrics is helpful.

We always think about bone density as being a problem for women who are postmenopausal.

John: Correct.

Dallas: But knowing that you might be on the lower end of the spectrum for bone density, even for men and for younger women, helps predict how you might carry yourself going into the future. I want to kind of reset the philosophy here. The average physician, again, who knows all the good things about going to medical school and residency would say, “Wait a minute, we’re only doing a DEXA scan in postmenopausal women because those are the people who are at the highest risk for fracture. And then we can’t possibly scan everyone. And so why are we scanning…” So you probably shouldn’t scan men and younger women. Why? Essentially, because what they do is the World Health Organization has a fracture risk score. And then they say, “Oh, well, if your fracture risk in 10 years is above some setpoint, then on a population level, those are the people we should screen.” It’s a completely arbitrary set point. It’s an arbitrary age and an arbitrary cut off. Say, “Oh, well, the fracture risk is above 10%, oh, well, then you’re the people we want to screen.” Well, wait a minute, that’s a 10 year risk of fracture. But what if I have clients like yourself, who say, “I don’t want to live for another 10 years. I want to live, I don’t know, for another 50 years”? Who knows?

John: Right.

Dallas: So if I can detect early changes in bone density that are essentially, on the lower end, let’s say one standard deviation lower than average for your age, that may not mean that you’re at a serious risk for fracture, you’re probably not. That may not mean that you need to go on medication. Of course not. But it might mean that we need to reevaluate, one, maybe what kinds of physical exercise you’re doing. I get a lot of runners or swimmers who are incredibly athletic, and have no clue that their bone density is on the lower end of normal, maybe one or even two standard deviations off from their normal. They would never know that. The other thing is family history. People with a family history of osteoporosis may have lower than they would expect, low bone density. Again, this wouldn’t be to put them on a medication, this wouldn’t be to assess their near-term risk for fracture. This is we’re helping people think 30 to 50 to maybe even longer years down the line.

John: True. Break it down like this, now that you’ve made me think about bone density, because you had me take a DEXA, what’s fascinating is what I heard recently in one of the podcasts I was listening to. By the way, for our listeners out there, not only is this a great book Tony Robbins wrote with these two other great doctors, but on page… Of course, I failed to mention the first time on page 262, 263, Dallas himself was mentioned in this book. So when I say Dallas is one of the great doctors out there and that we’re so lucky to have him today, he’s in this great book. And this book I highly recommend to people. Tony Robbins was actually talking about morbidity rates, that if you’re in your 60s, with a poor bone density, and you have an accident and break a hip, the morbidity rate is… Go, share….

Dallas: Some of the statistics earlier… I don’t know what the updated ones are, but I know the mortality was up to 50% of a hip fracture within a year.

John: That’s what you said, and I almost [crosstalk] fell down when I [inaudible]

Dallas: [inaudible] bone density.

John: So there are huge dangers that associate with being low bone density and having an accident or something happen. Becoming immobile is not what we want to become in our 60s.

Dallas: It’s really data to inspire people to change, as opposed to, again, how the World Health Organization would look at it and say, “This is data used to predict drug treatment and postmenopausal women.” No, no, no. I mean, yes, that’s helpful but I also think it’s helpful for people who are at lower risk of fracture, but to say, “Wow I didn’t realize my bone density was that much lower than average. What can I do to become more fit stronger and healthier?”

John: Well, the whole paradox also is someone like me who is just an average person on the street, when you had me take the DEXA, I was doing it, in my mind, to find out my body fat ratio. I had no bone density on my mind, they were two words that never crossed my vernacular. Now, I’m all bone density… [inaudible] bone density now.

Dallas: Body composition, as you mentioned, is also very helpful. Again, because the amount of adipose tissue that’s around the internal organs – We call that visceral adipose tissue – plays very, very strongly into the risk of cardiovascular disease… It’s a little bit too nuanced to get into. But ultimately, because of certain attributes of that particular fat that’s in the abdominal cavity… It’s not necessarily even fat that you can see from the outside. And so even a relatively small amount of that fat that’s around the internal organs creates a significantly elevated risk for type two diabetes, heart disease, heart attacks, and even Alzheimer’s disease. So it’s wonderful to be able to check these types of metrics, again, way before symptoms ever occur, and say, hey this is a perfect opportunity. I tell people, look, this is wonderful that we found this because now we have so much time to make a change.

John: There was another thing. I was doing it for body fat composition; visceral fat was not a part of my vernacular. Well, now it is, and now it’s something that I’m thinking about because of the DEXA and because of you and because of Jane and all the great work you both are doing. Talk about some success stories of Fountain Life that you’d like to share with our listeners, and also, for our listeners and viewers, how can they sign up for Fountain Life if they’re getting inspired by listening to you or they read Tony’s book and listen to this podcast? Is it hard to sign up? And how does the process even begin?

Dallas: Thank you. I guess I’ll answer that last question first. There are two ways; going straight to the Fountain Life website, there’s easy access to… Clicking to Learn More About Fountain Life, you’ll get connected to an advisor. That would be the probably easiest and most streamlined way because you go through our advisors, and we have a whole tech team that was involved in that. Maybe at some point we’ll talk… If people are having trouble, I guess, getting an appointment, maybe we’ll have some way that people can get into contact with your [inaudible] team and then they’ll put them directly in touch with me. You mentioned success stories. I mean, at Fountain Life now, I’ve been here doing essentially these very advanced executive physicals for more than a year. I think I’m on my fourth totally asymptomatic diagnosis of kidney cancer. It’s an isolated tumor of the kidney that we pick up on the full body MRI. I mean, we are down to, I think, our fourth person who we found it. It was early, it had not spread past the kidney, it did not, quote unquote, “metastasize.” And for every single person, they bring that… I call them immediately. I say, “You know what, we found something, this is why you came in.” And I say, “This is the next step, is we’re going to get you to see a urologist or urology surgeon, and we’re going to probably get this thing out.” And sure enough, it’s our fourth person who’s taken the scan to the surgeon, and the surgeon says, “Wait a minute, why did you get this again? You have no symptoms.” And the person says, “Nope, no symptoms. I got the scan at Fountain Life.” And sure enough, they take the thing out and they do an analysis of it, an histological pathology analysis, and say, “Yeah, this was kidney cancer. They saved your life.” There’s no way anybody would have picked this up until it would have spread; it spread to the bone, it spread to the brain, it spread to the lung.” So this would have spread somewhere and been definitely inoperable, and maybe untreatable. Now it takes a while. Kidney cancer actually takes a while to spread. It’s just amazing to hear these stories. And of course, our clients are incredibly grateful. But again it’s not, of course, just us, it’s us creating this system whereby people can come in and get this full, comprehensive health evaluation.

John: I’m 60 years old, Dallas. When you’re 60 years old or even 55 or 65 or whatever age people come in… You’re much younger. When people start coming into Fountain Life, is it a yearly checkup that they come for you with as their ongoing care? How does the cadence of care really work?

Dallas: You know, it’s very individualized, we have some people that become members. That’s another set of details. But ultimately, I mean, some people come in, and it’s a one and done. They’ve been very concerned about their risk, and maybe they come in, and they have a few things that we talk to them about. And then they say, “That’s amazing. I’m really happy. I think I’m good for now.” But a lot of our clients are sort of, I think, in the mindset of, I either found something and treated it or thankfully found nothing on this first go round. They actually choose to come in either yearly or every other yearly as essentially a full health upload. That’s kind of the term coined by Peter Diamandis, who is, again, a very futuristic thinker and tech entrepreneur. And so thinking that you’re almost digitizing as much of your body as possible and having it in the cloud, that sort of tech cloud, so to speak. Being able to track and measure things on a yearly basis. I think there can be more traditional physicians out there that would push back against that and say, “Wait a minute, you’re getting way too much. You’re doing way too much testing. You’re creating anxiety in people. It doesn’t have to be done yearly.” And I’d say, “Hold on, I don’t want this to become a political or strongly emotional kind of discussion.” I’ve done, now, hundreds of these evaluations on people, and I don’t even know if I can count a single person who… Maybe I don’t know about it again. So maybe there are people who had a bad experience and I don’t know about it. But most of my clients follow up with me. Almost everyone follows up with me. At no point has somebody said, “This scan gave me so much anxiety. I’m never doing this again.” No, because we will find asymptomatic things. When we do your MRI, John, we’re going to find probably a cyst in the kidney, a cyst in the liver, a benign thing here and there. The idea is not to catastrophize those things and say, oh, we found something, we’re going to… We don’t biopsy things unnecessarily. This comprehensive testing is ultimately kind of designed and woven together to give reassurance. And we only really follow up on things that are high risk. So it’s ultimately a mindset change. It’s let’s get the full body upload, let’s find out what your baseline is, and then just kind of, I guess, inpassionately or dispassionately check this on a relatively ongoing basis. Some people choose a yearly cadence. Again, a year is pretty simple; you do a yearly physical, and just every year it comes up. There is a little bit of science behind it too. So, if for example, we did your full scan and we found nothing, and this is great. Okay, no tumors, no masses, nothing urgent. If the next day, there was some little mass there that suddenly became detectable just the day after you got the scan, the most unfortunate… If we waited a whole year and rescanned you, theoretically, most things would still be very small in stage one on that next year. So a year is a pretty good opportunity to repeat a lot of scanning on people. Early cancer detection blood test, as well as an MRI.

John: I’ll push back on, like you said, the anxiety argument. The other argument is, once we start working with you with Fountain Life or at Danford Works, the peace of mind you have on the other side, once you start getting these tests, is worth all the minor anxiety going into what are these tests going to show? I’d rather know than have everything opaque.

Dallas: Right. Look, it’s people’s bodies. I get it. I mean, people are anxious. And this is it, one life. So I get the anxiety. But if I can somehow coach people that are listening that would say, “I would never want this because…” I’m not trying to convince anybody to get [inaudible].

John: Right. No.

Dallas: Oh, I guess I forgot to do the caveat, like I’m not your doctor.

John: Say that. I want you to say it.

Dallas: This is not medical advice. Any questions you have, you should see your doctor and ask your doctor about them. This is blanketly just talking about [crosstalk] it in general.

John: Having a discussion.

Dallas: But that being said, again, the philosophy of this would be like, okay, again, thinking more dispassionately about how these things… Think about it this way. Would you want to get into a car or an airplane that doesn’t undergo regular checkups? Right? No, you wouldn’t. You wouldn’t want to go to an airplane. [inaudible] like, well, why would you want to know? I’m going to get on the airplane anyway. It’s like, no, you want to get that thing checked out before you take off. And if you find something, well, thankfully, you found something now and you could fix it before you take off. Again, obviously, there’s maybe some flaws in that comparison, but I think people get the idea. There’s a way to go about this without getting wrapped up in the anxiety. Again, if people have anxiety then that’s something that we counsel people on.

John: We’re going to switch hats now from your great work at Fountain Life. For people that want to find Dallas and Fountain Life and all the great work Dallas and his colleagues are doing there or to sign up for some of these tests and to meet Dallas in person at the Naples facility where he’s the Medical Director, please go to www.fountainlife.com. Now we’re going to switch hats now where you’re the medical director for Danford Works with your wonderful wife, Dr. Jane Danford, who I’ve known now 10 or 11 years, and she’s been also my physical therapist and now working with her on other issues with you. Talk a little bit about Danford Works, why Danford Works was created, and what you and Jane do there together.

Dallas: Sure. Denver works is a personalized wellness platform that combines some health data analysis and one-on-one coaching to empower people to achieve better lifelong health. So it’s essentially a team of expert clinicians and it’s also a physician but physical therapists, dieticians, wellness and nutrition coaches, certified strength and conditioning specialists, that essentially guide, educate, and inspire you on a wellness journey from the comfort of your own home. Their mission, of course, is just to make health optimization more manageable, enjoyable, and accessible for people.

Jane created Danford Works. She started it as a physical therapy practice based out of New York City. As you know, that’s [inaudible] Jane.

John: Right.

Dallas: She quickly realized though, seeing patients for almost 10 years before starting this more comprehensive platform… She really recognized early on that in order to get people to recover as fast as possible, she really had to address their whole body health. And she started focusing on the the quote unquote, “big picture” pretty early on. And she noticed that her patients were recovering more quickly and looking better, feeling better, performing better. It just took her time to gather together the right colleagues and the right partners to put together this comprehensive program. So it just was no surprise because even before Jane started this current iteration of Danford Works back when it was just called Danford Physical therapy, her clients go to, essentially, a health consultant. I mean, maybe you have stories. Actually, I’ll let you tell it. But the reason why you even met me was because you asked her, “What doctor should I see?” Right?

John: That’s right. That’s exactly right. I was seeing one of your colleagues who was traveling at the time when I got injured, and he was my doctor because of Jane. Dr. Kirschner out of NYU Langone back then. And then you were available, and I came to see you and you are amazing as well. Not only did I learn about the trapeze but it was literally in that room…. I just remember sitting in that room, I remember which side of the table I was on, where your desk was, on the right hand side, where the examination table was, on the left hand side. And I said to myself, “These two should be together. Jane and [inaudible] should be together. These two are both geniuses. They know more than any other doctors I’ve ever met in my life.” And they got that worked out. But yeah, you’re right, Jane was a great facilitator in terms of making sure that her clients were always being taken care of for their needs. And everyone she ever sent me to was amazing. So I mean, it just made sense for her to put together Danford Works. [inaudible]

Dallas: She has tons and tons of examples of amazing success stories. This iteration of her company was really born out of, again, so many of her clients asking her, “Who do I go to for this? What does this mean? Should I be taking this thing? Should I be going to this thing? Is this surgeon good? Is this guy…” She realized that in the world of whatever our current world of social media and where people are getting their information from… I mean, as difficult as it was to find a good physician, I don’t know, 10, 20 years ago, you think, okay, with the internet, Google, Yelp, it’s going to be so much easier to get good information. How untrue, is that? Right?

John: You bring up a brilliant point. It’s the paradox of the internet. The paradox of the internet is because you think then the best would rise to the top, but the truth is so many of the frauds and charlatans have a chance to rise to the top. So you have a democratization the fake ones, the ones that really don’t know how to get it done. So it creates more confusion than before we had the intranet, frankly, speaking.

Dallas: Right. So seeing that and constantly having her clients asking her, “Is this legit? Is that legit? Is this treatment… Should I be doing this or that?” She said, “Wait a minute, this is an opportunity to gather together a team, a multidisciplinary team, to coach people one-on-one from everything, from injuries to body composition, weight loss, and way more than that.”

John: The beauty of it is you and Jane get to do this, and your clients get to do this, and it doesn’t matter if you’re sitting in Fresno, or in Paris, [crosstalk] or New York, or in Hawaii or in Shanghai, you can see that this can be done all remotely now.

Dallas: Exactly.

John: That’s amazing.

Dallas: We have so many great stories. Like we had an elite runner basically told by multiple physical therapists, multiple orthopedic surgeons that… She basically ruptured her hamstring and had surgery and was told, “You might really never run again.” Elite runner, almost a professional runner. And she worked with the Danford Works team, including, at one point, Jane, and then our other executive team member, Auren Manalo. They assessed every angle from her kind of top to bottom… nutritional assessments, body composition, bone density, along with a very in-depth physical therapy assessment, and they they got her back to running, essentially, completely against what many, many physical therapist orthopedic surgeons said. “You’ll never get back to your prior pace and speed, competition, fitness.” She’s now one of the top female ultra runners in the country.

John: What’s next for Danford Works? What are the plans?

Dallas: That’s a good question. What’s next? In the evolution of a small startup company, I think the next thing is probably going to be figuring out how we’re going to hire a few more coaches and hire potentially some few other physicians to round out our virtual platform, and then probably some upgrades to some backend technical things, make things a little bit easier for people to access data. So mostly those kinds of things. It’s very open. I think the nice thing about the platform is it’s predicated on Jane’s kind of prior concierge practice where it was exceedingly high value information from one-on-one coaching from a very selective group of experts. So again, it started with Jane’s expertise, and it’s just expanded. The only people she brings on… For example, her wellness and nutrition coach, Tracy Friedman, was heavily involved in this other case which I’ll tell you about. We had a client who her doctor told her, “You have osteoporosis,” put her on, basically, some medication, and said, “Look, this is just a slow… your decline. You’re going to decline. Your bone density is going to get worse. This is just trying to help prevent a fracture.” But again, she came through Danford Works, she worked with Tracy Freedman, and developed a strength program. worked with Jane, as well as this whole nutrition program, upped her protein, dialed in all of her nutrition. At six months, she got another DEXA scan. Her endocrinologist basically couldn’t believe it. They said, “Your bone density actually improved.” Again, to some people that don’t know that very well, unfamiliar with it, it’s very uncommon for bone density to improve. A lot of the treatments are meant to slow the decline. I guess it’s an anecdote, but it’s a wonderful anecdote saying that we can make a huge amount of change. But again, it’s a lot of one-on-one talking. It’s a lot of phone conversations and video messaging and really getting into the details. What’s going on in your life and how can we help you make meaningful changes to your habits and your fitness?

John: Well, Dallas, as our listeners and viewers have gotten to know you, they’re getting to know that you get to work with cool people like Tony Robbins and Dr. Peter Diamandis and all the colleagues you have at Fountain Life. But then everyone’s dream is… You have a day jo, and then you’re a side hustle. I only say that with love and admiration as you get to work with your wife, who’s another brilliant practitioner, and build the entrepreneurship side of your creativity and DNA, which is fascinating unto itself. So because you get to live in that… you’re surrounded with all these experts and wonderfully successful practitioners. We’ve talked about testing. Well, let’s talk about practical, actionable things our listeners and viewers can use that you’ve seen in both your own life and Jane’s life, but also in your clients’ lives that can be put to use when it comes to nutrition, exercise, and sleep. Share some of your thoughts on nutrition, exercise, and sleep for best practices.

Dallas: Okay. That’s broad. I like it though.

John: Well break it down to each segment, like general good thoughts on how should people who want to improve their health and wellness nutritionally… What’s some good guidelines? Is it Dr. Greger’s Daily Dozen of things that we should be… I mean, what [inaudible] that are truisms, that are some good guidelines that people could be doing better?

Dallas: Let’s see. For nutrition, easier, actually, to start with debunking some myths before we get to… There’s a lot of myths about nutrition and diet, and these are woven into the current fads right. Fad diets have been around for a very long time, and they just morphed suddenly, some have gotten popularity and then research… Currently, we seem to be in this keto, paleo kind of carnivore thing right now, as well as this intermittent fasting, kind of like, when should I eat? And so what ends up happening with dietary recommendations is, typically, it’s creating, essentially, some sort of like a fear mongering, that this particular macronutrient, this particular thing is bad for you. And so we basically need to do everything else that’s not that thing. Or the problem of health in society is that people are eating too often, so we just need to eat less often, and that’ll fix everything.

John: So, zero-sum game, either do it our way or you’re doing it wrong.

Dallas: Right. And so there’s been a ton of research lately that’s come out. There was a big explosion about intermittent fasting. I tried intermittent fasting, just as an example, and it was like this big thing because they thought, “Well, you only eat in a certain time window, and that’s going to upregulate these special chemicals in your body. They’re going to fight cancer and help you lose weight,” and all this stuff, as long as you’re just not eating for whatever… They said 18 hours or 16 hours at a time. There are some huge studies that came out of both the US and China and elsewhere, so multicenter trials that show that, in general, people weren’t all that much healthier at all, really no statistically significant changes in many metrics of health for almost a year of intermittent fasting. Some of the studies were less than a year. So, what it truly came down to was the following, no matter how you did it, if you ate less calories, if you started off overweight and had metabolic issues, either prediabetes, or high cholesterol, or whatever it was, if you ended up eating less calories, you were healthier; it didn’t matter exactly how you got it. Okay, so that’s sort of an example of how you can take this new fad and then actually have to kind of break some of it down and wait for some new research to come out. It’s funny, the single diet that tends to have the most amount of evidence behind it… I mean, it’s pretty boring for me to say it. It’s the Mediterranean diet. Over and over again, it’s the kind of Michael Pollan thing, like try to eat mostly plants and eat just enough to satiate yourself. Whether or not you throw in some lean animal protein or you get most of it from plant protein seems like it doesn’t matter all that much as long as you’re getting enough protein. But that Mediterranean style diet where it’s relatively low in saturated fat with a variety of fresh fruits and vegetables, and then the beans, legumes, nuts, etc… Over and over again, it’s been shown to improve brain health and blood vessel health, so it reduces cardiovascular events. But over and over again, it tends to be, if you are at risk, the main thing is to find out… Here’s the other thing. Diets are different for everybody. So whatever diet tends to help people be the most satiated and tend to overeat less, tends to be the best for their metabolic health. So if they can get their intermittent fasting, great, if they’re on a high carb vegan diet, great. So I guess what I’d follow that up with is we won’t really know until we get a sense of your metabolic health. So unless you get your blood work done regularly, you get your body composition done… We know how much visceral fat you have, those are the kinds of things that we want to… I’d recommend people to be checking to make sure their diet is right for them.

John: That’s so great. How about exercise? Obviously you and Jane are extraordinarily fit. You’re built like an athlete. Jane’s an athlete. What do you think people can do in terms of fitness, actionable… They don’t have to go out and buy a peloton bike right away and other things to prove that they’re going to really get there. What can people do to be more fit in terms of activity?

Dallas: I hate to answer this question again with a hey, we have to do more testing kind of answer. There’s a lot of situations where… If you’re starting off with, I love playing X sport, should I not play that sport for some reason? I generally say, look, if you can find something that you love doing, that’s primacy, that’s number one. If anything’s going to get you up off the couch to do that thing, amazing. That’s got to be number one. So you have a huge hobby that you love, great, we’ll use that. That’s number one. But based on the data, if we’re talking about just maximizing healthspan and lifespan… Let’s take cardiovascular fitness; there’s a measurement of cardiovascular fitness called a VO2 Max. That’s essentially how good your lungs are at extracting oxygen out of the air. Maybe I explained that slightly poorly, but that’s the idea. So how good your lungs are extracting oxygen is essentially almost a linear curve for lifespan or inversely correlated with mortality. So some type of cardiovascular training… Again, if you hate cardio and you’ll never do cardio, strict cardio, but you’ll get out on the tennis court, amazing. That’s great. That’s what you got to do. But all things being considered, some type of cardiovascular training three to four times a week, that’s activating that system that will help you increase your cardiovascular fitness, there’s no question that that’s correlated with longevity. Now, that is one. The other is resistance training. Some people, you can’t get them out of the gym, and they just love weightlifting. And then there’s other people who can’t stand it and never want to step foot in a gym. Again, it depends. In people who are relatively, I guess, under muscled or have too little muscle mass… We can define that. There’s a term in medicine called sarcopenia. We can determine that by testing. If people are on the lower end of muscle mass, it would be tough for me as a health consultant to say, oh, you’re okay with that low muscle mass. No, I mean, if I see somebody at, let’s say, the 10th percentile for their muscle for their age and muscle mass, I gotta say we’ve got to hit the gym a little bit, we’ve got to find some way to get some resistance training to put muscle on you. Now, in a world of, as you said, peloton and group fitness classes, as well as swimming, running, yoga, pilates, and all of these other kinds of fitness crazes… I look at some things and say, look… Here’s an example. Much, much easier, as opposed to giving blanket advice, it’d be here’s the specific example. Let’s say I see a woman who’s in her, let’s say mid 50s, incredibly fit, super low body fat, and we find that her bone density is a little on the low side, and she is very fit and thin, petite, but actually is maybe in the 15th or 10th percentile of her age in terms of muscle, that kind of stereotypical archetype is also the type of person, at least in the United States, who tends to focus on peloton and pilates. It’s super high cardio. I said, “Do you do any strength training?” And they say, “Yeah, yeah, I do lots of pilates,” or like a ballet barre class or something like that. Maybe that shows New York kind of like… But whatever. LA too. But here’s the problem. I said, “Look, you can do pilates all day long and ballet bar all day long, but 100 leg lifts and hip thrusters against no resistance, you’re not going to gain muscle.” If we take your body composition now, here’s the raw data: maybe at 55, you look great, you fit into your dresses and whatever, but at 65, 75, 85, the ability to maintain that muscle goes down and down and down. So if you’re in the 10th percentile now, it’s going to be the lower and lower and lower… So the 10th percentile when you’re 55 is starting to look like what we call sarcopenia by the time you’re in your 70s or 80s. Once once you hit sarcopenia, your risk for dementia, cancer, falls, head injuries, and hip fractures are all elevated at that point. So I have to say, look, at this point, you’re in the top shape of your life, but we have to think about putting muscle mass on you. I hope that was helpful for exercise?

John: Very helpful. Talk a little bit about sleep. What’s your thoughts on sleep? More is better? And is sleep [inaudible] dead? Mantra… when I was in my 20s, is also now dead and behind us?

Dallas: Yeah. We could have tackled sleep first, honestly, because of the pillars of health, I mean, there’s nothing that makes it more difficult to stick to a good diet, a healthy diet, than getting adequate sleep. I don’t know about you, but I’ve never had the worst dietary choices than being sleep deprived at the airport, right? It’s the worst.

John: [inaudible] exercise program that I could sleep through if sleep deprived, you know?

Dallas: Right. So that’s kind of the obvious one. I’m going to almost plagiarize essentially from a lot of my mentors and my reading on the topic, because the importance of sleep is woefully under-trained in medical school. Not to mention how poorly under-slept medical students and residents are, personally, but the training is terrible. The statistics just go on and on and on. I mean, the risk of cardiovascular disease, the risk of cancer, the risk of dementia all go up in populations of people that are sleep deprived. Scary enough, I think the World Health Organization, actually classified night shift work as a carcinogen.

John: Wow.

Dallas: Yeah. So people that engage in night shift work had such a higher increased risk of cancer that the World Health Organization reclassified it. It’s pretty amazing. So, how to sleep better. There have been books and entire podcasts, audio series devoted to getting better sleep and the importance of sleep. I typically have my clients say, look, if you’re having poor sleep, let’s break some things down. One, is it some kind of a medical problem that needs an accurate diagnosis. For example, if somebody has obstructive sleep apnea, where they’re just suddenly waking up, maybe they notice it, maybe they don’t, maybe they’re snoring so much their partner knows it, whatever the thing is, if that’s a medical… it doesn’t matter how much melatonin, or setting the temperature down, or whatever sleep ring you’re wearing is not going to help somebody with a medical issue. Again, as I said, through the whole podcast, I can’t be your doctor, and don’t take this as medical advice. But for sure, if you’re having a significant type of insomnia, you should get an evaluation from someone that’s qualified. So cutting out the actual medical reasons why you might not be sleeping well. You want to classify insomnia. There’s ultimately three types. I may be not getting this perfect, but the idea is that there’s the, “I’m having trouble getting to sleep,” the sleep onset, then there’s the, “I’m waking up in the middle of the night,” so it’s the sleep maintenance. “I can’t maintain my… I got to sleep perfectly fine. My head hits the pillow, I’m asleep, but then at 2am, boom, I’m up.” That’s sleep maintenance insomnia. And then there’s a whole other type of insomnia where it seems like you get to sleep okay, and maybe you’re not waking up too much, but I wake up every night every morning and I just don’t feel well rested. Once you get categorized properly and of course rule out serious medical issues affecting your sleep, then there’s a whole algorithm for trying to help people figure out what those issues are. I mean, at this point, it’s almost like… So many of the people I talked to, even people that aren’t super into health… I’ve heard of all the sleep hygiene recommendations, the not eating three hours before sleep and not over exercising three hours before sleep shutting off your screens an hour before getting to sleep. All of those things are very, very helpful but…

John: Sugar is a no no. Alcohol is a no, no.

Dallas: Alcohol, of course. So I would point people toward, definitely, my favorite book on the topic, it’s called Why We sleep by Matthew Walker… John are you [crosstalk] familiar with…

John: Yeah, that’s really become the genesis book on this whole issue, the compelling information.

Dallas: But I’d say that if those basic guidelines in those kinds of books… And Matthew Walker also has a great podcast, where he kind of breaks down a lot of his recommendations. If people are finding that they’re just not getting… That’s like the basics, right? The sleep hygiene stuff. At some point, it is very helpful to then say, okay, I should get a health coach and get a physician who knows what they’re doing and delve into my individual issues, because addressing each one of those things, it’s very individualized. I guess, some very practical things… Again, that’s been mentioned, but I can just take some of my experiences as something to jump off of. So, for example, if you hear the whole, okay, you have to sleep at a lower temperature, an ambient temperature, it’s a great recommendation, and Matt Walker talks on and on about the data, where they measure people’s body temperature, and they drop it down, and they get to sleep better when the body temperature drops, and all these things, well, that’s great. Specifically, how these people wear full body suits of cooling tubes, and they can cool down different parts of… Okay. But here’s the problem, in the real world, and he also acknowledges this too, but in the real world, I have to sleep next to my wife, who likes an ambient temperature much higher than mine. So, the practical solution there is something like, for example, a sleep mattress, or a cooling mattress, or a cooling topper, that has two different settings. So I cool my side of the bed down way lower than hers. It allows for me to optimize my temperature, and she gets to optimize her temperature. And there you go. So that’s an example of a little bit of a hack that… Again, so we leave the thermostat higher than I would want it, but I get to cool my side of the bed better. So that’s kind of an example of how you have to merge science with practicality.

John: We’ve covered a lot today. Any final thoughts before we say goodbye just for today? Because we’re going to have you back on, because I know you and Jane are going to grow Danford Works, I know Fountain Life is going to explode in the years to come, and that practice is also going to grow for you. Any final thoughts on health, wellness, and longevity before we sign off for this episode?

Dallas: You know what? We’ve covered so much. I think the one thing I would say is, the big overarching theme of this is that you can’t manage what you don’t measure.

John: I love it.

Dallas: So, the proper testing, getting to know what you want, and then that will help you focus on your goals, and then find an expert to work one-on-one with. As you mentioned, again, in the world that we’re living in with almost so much information where, unfortunately, almost like the worst information rises to the top, the social media algorithms are not designed to raise to the top the most accurate information; it’s the information that gets the most likes or comments or paid promotion. So finding the right expert and working one-on-one with that expert would be my recommendation.

John: If what rose to the top was… all that we saw was the best, we’d be all the visiting Dr. Kim Kardashian, I guess. But anyway, Dallas, thanks again. For our listeners out there, this book is one great example. Dallas is actually talked about in this book. This is a great book. And his practice at Fountain Life is amazing. Please go to www.fountainlife.com to find Dallas and his colleagues and all the important work that they’re doing there. To find Dallas and Jane and all the great work they’re doing at Danford Works, please go to www.danfordworks.com.

Dallas Kingsbury, you’re making a great impact on people’s life, longevity, health and wellness. Thank you for joining us on this episode. We’re going to have you back one day to talk about the continued journey that you’re on at both these great institutions. Thanks for spending time with us today.

Dallas: You got it, John. Thank you.

John: This episode of the Impact Podcast is brought to you by Closed Loop Partners. Closed Loop Partners is a leading Circular Economy investor in the United States with an extensive network of fortune 500 corporate investors, family offices, institutional investors, industry experts, and Impact partners. Closed Loops Platform spans the arc of capital from venture capital to private equity, bridging gaps and fostering synergies to scale the circular economy. To find Closed Loop Partners, please go to www.closedlooppartners.com.

John: This edition of the Impact Podcast is brought to you by ERI. ERI has a mission to protect people, the planet, and your privacy, and is the largest fully integrated IT and electronics asset disposition provider and cybersecurity-focused hardware destruction company in the United States and maybe even the world. For more information on how ERI can help your business properly dispose of outdated electronic hardware devices, please visit eridirect.com.

John Shegerian: Listen to the Impact Podcast on all your favorite podcast platforms, including Apple iTunes, Google podcast, Amazon Music, iHeartRadio Audible Spotify Stitcher and of course at impactpodcast.com. This edition of the impact podcast is brought to you by ERI. ERI has a mission to protect people, the planet and your privacy and is the largest fully integrated IT and electronics asset disposition provider and cybersecurity focused Hardware destruction company in the United States and maybe even the world. For more information on how ERI can help your business properly dispose off outdated electronic Hardware devices, please visit eridirect.com.

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John: Welcome to another edition of the Impact Podcast. This is the first edition in 2023, and this is a most special edition because we’ve got with us today Ryan Birdman Parrott. Welcome to the Impact Podcast for our first edition of this new year.

Ryan Parrott: Thank you so much for having me, brother. I’m super excited about this.

John: Ryan, I said this to you off the air but before we even get going and our audience is going to learn a lot about you today, thank you for your service and everything you’ve done be what we’re going to be talking about today.

Ryan: No, it was an honor. It’s truly humble when I hear that because we never thought about anything other than I want to go join the military. Thank you for that.

John: Well, there’s a lot to unpack here today. You’re a fascinating guy with an amazing history, but I think even a bigger future ahead of you on what you’re endeavoring to accomplish. We’re going to get into that in a couple minutes, but first, let’s go backwards. Where did you grow up? How did you get interested in becoming a Navy SEAL which, of course, that’s why I said at the top of the show, thank you for your service. Where is the Genesis of Ryan Birdman Parrott?

Ryan: I grew up in Detroit, Michigan. Played ice hockey, it’s what you do out there in Michigan. You learn how to walk, you learn how to skate same time. [laughter] It’s interesting when we start to dissect guys who make it through the program, whether it’s SEAL training or any other special operations, most of them come from broken homes and that’s something interesting. Just that information, the way that you receive what’s happening in your upbringing creates that adversity and that overcoming adversity. I think that was a huge catalyst to helping me get through the program. But my parents divorced when I was five years old. We moved from house to house from parent’s house to parent’s house to grandparent’s house. I never really was able to develop communication skills because I wasn’t at a school long enough to make friends. That’s why I cherish my relationships more than anything that’s tangible today is my relationships with people. Because we’re on this Earth to help each other, we’re on this Earth to share with each other and minus God, my family, everything to me is my relationships. In middle to high school, I started developing relationships and was playing pretty competitive hockey. I was failing almost every subject in school. I have a report card, my dad captain, he sent it to me I was like, “Oh my gosh, I’m so glad I’m out of this.” [inaudible] an F, a D and non complete and all these, I use it for speeches. It’s hilarious. [laughter]. I was going nowhere. Oh well, the thing is I didn’t care. That was the worst part is it’s I couldn’t do the inform, I couldn’t do the work, I could take the test but I chose not to. I didn’t care about the outcome. I didn’t care about where I was going in life. That’s a real bad place to be when you’re going nowhere. I was working at Walgreens in the photo department and that’s why I always loved to make the joke when I go to just send a resume for fun to a friend. I’m like, “Would you hire me as Walgreens photo printer US Navy SEAL Sniper?” [laughter]. It was [inaudible], but it was a teacher who is a motivational psychology teacher who’s a Marine in Vietnam. He came into the classroom one day and instead of being hundred miles an hour and boisterous and all that, he just looked at the class, he held the American flag and he said, “Ladies and gentlemen, there’s only one thing better than the US Marine Corps and that’s United States Navy SEALs.” I turned my head and I’m like, “What did he just say?” Because all he ever talked about was the Marine Corps and I just couldn’t believe it. He made it sound so fascinating, he was a storyteller and it was just like, “Oh my gosh, this is my calling, it’s what I’m supposed to do.” [laughter] I stayed after class, I’m like, “Mr. Barnes[?], I’m going to be a Navy SEAL.” He violently laughs in my face. I’m like, “You can’t do that. You’re my teach, you can’t make fun of me.” He’s like, “Buddy, you’re not even passing my class, and it’s an elective. How are you going to pass the toughest military training the world has?” I’m like, “I don’t know.” That’s why it’s so important for people to keep their word today because if he would have just said, “Oh well, you know what? Good riddance to you, do what you do.” That would’ve been one thing in my life would have been ultimately not great. But he said, “I’m gonna get something for you.” The next day when I showed up to class there was a Reader’s Digest Magazine sitting in my desk, talks about the making of an American warrior. This guy named Jeff Wright who went from the Marine Corps into the Navy to see if he had what it takes to survive and that told me everything I needed to know. I was like, “Oh my gosh, there’s a glorified Marine. Marines are awesome, they’re the best and this guy got out honorably went into the Navy to see if he could survive SEAL training. I’m in. I’m sold.” Of course, this talk is cheap. It’s talk is talk and so I went back to being a complete loser or I was not doing anything, there was no grades. I was just failing everything, I didn’t care and 911 happened. I remember when I saw the second tower explode and they said it was a possible terrorist attack, I couldn’t make up in my mind how somebody could kill, absolutely murder that many people and let alone one person but just everybody. I was so angry inside and that’s not the reason that you join the service, not the reason you go to war, but I was so raged that I said, I certainly can’t change what just happened, but maybe I can be a part of the solution. I left class right then and there when that tower had just fallen. I went to the recruiter station. I said, “I don’t care what it takes, get me into the SEAL program. They said, “Whoa, slow your horses. You can’t just go into the SEALs. I said, “Did you see what happened on the TV? I’m in.” I was too young to join right then and there, I had to wait a few months and then I would enlist in the delayed entry program in the Navy with no hopes of being a SEAL. I was going to be Aviation Ordnance, I was going to put bombs in the bottom of the jets and I was going to go try out and boot camp to become a SEAL and that’s how it all started for me.

John: How old were you then?

Ryan: I was 18 going on 19.

John: You had some DNA in you though. Both your grandfathers if I’m not mistaken, were both US military veterans?

Ryan: That’s right. One army, one navy. Both World War II. They’re truly the greatest generation of folk. Those are the men who every time I’d go home for Christmas, they have their American flipping, and if it was tattered or messed up, “Ryan, you go on out there and you go get that flag for me. Go put another one up.” It’s like that was a point of contention, we got to get this done. Growing up with them is influence in saying these are strong sturdy men who have values towards our nation and the people within it. That was also another catalyst to helping me make that decision.

John: That’s awesome. So now you’re in, you’re listed, how did that go? Was it more than you’ve ever felt in terms of a challenge than your entire life prior to that?

Ryan: As far as boot camp for the Navy, there wasn’t a challenge for me per say. A lot of people get homesick, I didn’t because I knew that I was on a path. I didn’t want to get away from home, I wanted to go further my life and better my life. I thought the boot camp was really unique because I get to see if boot camp hasn’t really changed since World War II. It still has the same feel, still has the same smell. Some of what they would be called the barracks, but they call them ships in the Navy but they’re still barracks, old, the rundown and it’s a training command. So you go there. What I liked about the Navy’s boot camp, is that it taught you about the traditions the United States Navy, that was something that everybody had to learn. So, in fortifies you into a 1-unit group right out of the gate. Everybody, my grandfather went to the same teachings. I did. That’s what’s really cool. Folding my underwear every single day and ironing t-shirts and that, not my favorite, but it is what it is. Simplifying your life. When you get to boot camp, they strip you down, they have you take everything off and you put it in a box and then they ship that back home. So you have no possessions. For the next nine weeks, you will live out of you have your rack your bed and then you have two little drawers. And those are the contents of your life. What you realize is that you don’t need anything to truly thrive. It’s use what you have to your advantage and that was so nice. Cell phones weren’t a thing then so that was a beauty too. There’s no social media, there’s just purely this greatness of be present, be in the moment and learn the traditions. I felt like it went backwards though physically in boot camp training.

John: Really?

Ryan: In SEAL training, they drop you down. You have to do 50 pushups. In boot camp, they drop you down, you do 10. So I would find myself after hours when everybody go to sleep, working out in the back of the barracks because I felt like it was going backwards. I remember it was the second week of boot camp. There was an instructor that came around and said, “Who wants to sign up for special activities or tryout for special activities?” I thought I’m in. That’s me, I want to do that. I wasn’t sure if it hadn’t meant SEALs, but he goes, “Oh, really, you think you’re going to be a SEAL?” I was like, “I at least made the right call. So I went and try it out and you do an academic test, you do a physical fitness test, you do an overall review board and then I think there’s a site test. I didn’t get any information after that and all they said to me after I’d taken that battery of tests was you can show up now and train with us every morning. You have to get up two hours earlier than everybody in boot camp and that’s it. No guarantees. No nothing, just show up if you want and you can train. That’s it.” So I would do that. Getting closer to the end of boot camp, I had no word. Nobody had told me anything, and I’m starting to freak out if I don’t get anybody to talk to me and I don’t even know who to talk to, I’m going into the fleet and that’s not what I signed up for. Nothing against the fleet, but that just wasn’t my path at all. That was the second last week of boot camp, the Senior Chief is the first Navy SEAL I’ve ever met. Senior Chief, it’s Henry. He looked like a SEAL and he talked like one, very deep voice scary terrifying. He came into our bootcamp division and, “Parrott!” So I run over to him. I knew that voice and I stood at attention. He’s like, “Still want to be a frogman?” I was like, “More than ever Senior Chief.” He goes, “Well, we were looking at all your tests and you did good on all of them but we’re just not sure that you’re the quality of candidate we’re looking for.” In my mind, I’m thinking to myself as he says that, “Well, of course, I’m not. Why would I? I was a complete screw-up failing every subject in school, working a deadbeat job, going nowhere in life. Why would I be your candidate?” So that’s running through my brain as he’s talking. Then he looks over to the rest of the guys in boot camp, and they’re very lethargic. At the end of it, nobody’s really doing anything. He looks back at me and smiles and he goes, “Just kidding. Welcome to BUD/S.” And I was like, “Oh my gosh! [laughter] Thank you Jesus. Thank you so much.” It was so mind-bending to me to know that I was going to be in SEAL training at just being 20 years old. That I had gone from a year and a half earlier failing every subject in school, having no path, going nowhere in life to now I just got accepted to Tufts military training the Navy has provide. Oh my gosh, this is an amazing step, so that was pretty emotional.

John: Holy Toledo. For non-veterans like me, frame it up a little bit, out of 100% of people who go into Navy SEAL training, what percentage don’t even make it?

Ryan: Sure. You have everybody around the country that wants to go be a SEAL competing, and they have to score a certain percentage in a test before they even get into boot camp and so what we’ll have to guarantee their contract, and so they’re competing against everybody. When I went through, they didn’t have that. It was you try out. It’s a battery of things. You have to pass the academics in the physicality, and they also have to like you because they’re going to be working with you. So it’s a personality thing and a good-old-boy club. So you have to really fit the mold there. Honestly for me was the big thing. They asked me a couple questions about honesty and integrity and I was like, “I’m just here. You give me a mission and you let me go wild on it, I’m going to give you everything I got because that’s all I got.” “Okay, we can deal with this guy.” Because this is one thing that I know in life to be true is I will take anybody and put them on my team who has an incredible attitude and is just a mediocre athlete or a mediocre worker because I can help you, and I can train you to become excellent at your profession or your skill set. What I can’t do is change your attitude. If you got a good attitude, I’m going to work with you as opposed to somebody who is a hotshot who has a terrible attitude. So that’s what they really look for. When we got the buzz, there was about 200, it was 186 guys that you’re talking about all that had passed that curriculum at the highest level. They’re all athletes, they’re all hundred miles an hour, they’re hungry. You got out of the Navy, top 1% of the world that are there and about 85% of them quit and go away.

John: Eighty-five fall out of! Eighty five, that is incredible. So it’s not only the best versus the best. But then only about 15% graduate. Incredible, never even heard that step before. How long does it take to make it through Navy, SEAL training? What level for you was this an all-out moment? Was this by far the toughest thing you ever did? What got you through?

Ryan: Toughest? At that point, because you’re a kid, I was still, I was 20 years old so by far the toughest thing I’ve ever done. But for me, it was different. It was so unique. I had so much fun in SEAL training because from the information that I could get publicly, I was now living it. I was at that training command that they had started with. I was running on the grinder where they were in those pictures. I’m there, I’m present and I was accepted, so I’m grateful but I’m also living this. SEAL training is very unique because you have your standards, you have to do your 4-mile timed run every couple days in soft sandy boots. You have your two nautical mile ocean swims, you have your own courses, you have some log PT and some boat IBS or passage. So you have some variable or some standards. But then you have all these other activities that are unique and different that you have to pass as well. As you’re achieving something every day, you’re trying new things every single day, nothing’s easy. But you’re around people that want to be there too. The ones that don’t want to be there show themselves quickly and they’ll leave the exit quickly.

Within the first five weeks of SEAL training, everybody who needs to go away is gone. Then from there, it’s a 6-month program just for Seal training or buds. We call it basic underwater demolition SEAL training. After that 5 weeks, we know really the package that we’re going to be working with and then you become a brotherhood, you become your own fortified unit. That’s really cool. But for me, it was just the daily routine. You’re paying me to live in San Diego and this weather on the ocean. Oh my Gosh, minus getting eaten by a shark.

John: [laughter] For those of you just joined us either via video or on the podcast, we’ve got Ryan Birdman Parrott with us today. He’s a US Navy SEAL veteran, but we’re going to be talking about is great new venture americanextreme.com to learn more about Ryan and what he’s going to be talking about, what he’s going to be doing in February. So go look that up right now. Ryan, you get through being a navy, you get through BUD training here, 6 months in. Let’s go back a little bit. What does mom and dad saying about all this? Are your grandfather still alive? Did they get to live to see you do this?

Ryan: That’s a great question. I appreciate you asking that one because that was a very meaningful thing for me. When I told my parents originally I want to be a Navy SEAL, my mom, she’s super supportive. She’s like, “You just go do it honey. That sounds great.” Has no idea what it is [laughter]. My dad ended up going to the original America Online, the dial-up, went online and he said, “Do you have any idea what attrition rate there is?” I said, “Well, I don’t even know what that word means.” I [laughter] was like, “Is that good? Is that bad? What is this?” He was nervous. He’s one of those guys who don’t walk under a ladder so he’s like, “I don’t want to get too excited because I know that the odds are truly against you.” He was supportive but he was nervous and I would be the same way if my children went there.

John: Sure.

Ryan: You want them to succeed so well but you know the odds are completely against them. But I had the full support. We didn’t have cell phone, so I had to call my parents [inaudible] or use the pay phone every week and still trying just to let them know, “I’m still here, I’m still going, this is great.” Making the phone call to them after hell week was everything for me, it was the most powerful phone call I’ve ever made in my life.

John: That’s brilliant.

Ryan: It was just telling my parents how week is the toughest training we have in SEAL training. We jack quickly, we lost 60 guys the first night. It was just so fast and so hard and so miserable. I told my parents that I was going to give it everything I had, was the first time in really the only time that I had truly given every bit of everything I had to see if you truly do that, does it work? And the answer is yes. If you give everything that God has given you then you will succeed. I went through 5.5 days of being cold, wet, tired and miserable with no sleep and it was brutal. At the end of it, there was just a handful of us standing there to graduate hell week. The only thing I could think about was getting to that phone to make those calls. When I made the calls, it was the most emotional thing in the world. Because I said,

thank you for always sticking by me, because they could have just said the hell with it. You’re failing every subject in school for years and years. But now I said, “You stuck with me through all these times, and as a result of that, I just made it through hell week and I’m going to be a nice States Navy SEAL who knows everything.”

John: Were your two grandfathers also alive at this point as well?

Ryan: Oh yes. And so the…

John: Tell me about those calls.

Ryan: I didn’t get to make those calls because I had to get back to training.

John: Oh, got it.

Ryan: But just fast [inaudible] for a second is later on I would become a SEAL sniper and I ended up going through sniper school. All of my teammates that were all snipers and I when we were graduating, we decided to drive up to Michigan and my family came out and both of my granddads got to see my entire SEAL sniper buddies and we took a picture, and they both had their seal Trident hats on. So it’s really cool.

John: That’s really cool. That is awesome. So now you get out, the 6 months is over. Talk about a little bit about your experience in deployments. I know you had I believe 3 deployments, talk a little bit about that. How did the real service that you did with the Navy SEALs go, and how did you even become part of SEAL Team 7? Because that’s next level Navy SEAL stuff. That’s not just Navy SEAL, which is the most elite group of people in the world in terms of military but you became part of Seal Team 7. Explain that a little bit.

Ryan: It’s interesting. I always like to make the joke because I have friends over at what they call SEAL Team 6 or Development Group. The higher the number of the team, the better the team and I was at Team 7. That’s not actually that…

John: Is that the highest-level?

Ryan: no. [inaudible]. It’s just a joke for them. Typically, what will happen is you get to choose your coast, you want to go west or east coast when you graduate. After a buzz, you get to go to another finishing school which is called SQT, SEAL qualification training. So another six months of training, and then I think you go to Kodiak, Alaska for cold weather survival training, and then you go to [inaudible] and jump school, and then you come back and then you show up to your command. Usually you get to go to the team that’s coming back from deployment and you get to choose your coast. But they do an NFL draft. So they’ll take your information and your picture and they put it at the command, and they follow all the information for how you did during all the BUD/S in SQT. Then all the head shed gets together to say, “I want this guy, I want this guy. This guy’s a turd,” whatever it is. [inaudible] I was hand selected by SEAL Team 7 Alpha Platoon because of what I apparently offered them based off of my background It’s nice because you’re not just there like, “We’re just going to take you,” they hand-selected me. So I was grateful. The unique thing about SEAL Team 7, and there is not a team that best. There’s a lot of talk about specific teams doing specific missions, but it really is about the tribe of the team. It’s about the culture. What had happened was SEAL Team 7 had just been created. They had only done one deployment. What they did is they pulled senior guys from SEAL Team 1, 3 and 5 to build this team up. When they pulled all these unique dudes out, now you’re getting this incredible leadership, you’re getting all these incredible operators together in one roof to develop the command. That’s why it was so unique because they were hungry, they were motivated. They want to work hard. It was an open playing field to develop, and so as the newest SEAL Team along with Team 10, and I was just fortunate enough during that time frame to get into SEAL Team 7, ran out of the gate, what a career.

John: What year was that?

Ryan: I got to SEAL Team 7 in the early part of 2004.

John: Got it.

Ryan: Then we started our ULT or workup. We form up as a platoon. When I got into the SEAL Team, the guys had just gotten back from their first deployment as SEAL Team 7 so I just miss being a plank[?] owner right there.

John: [laughter] You had three deployments, talk about your deployments and some of the things that started to then change your life a little bit. Well, on some of these deployments, I know you had a big incident in that when you’re in the Humvee. So why do you go through that a little bit?

Ryan: Sure. Showing up to the command is very scary because you’re brand new again. You just went through all that training and now you’re a new guy here and you know nothing. Now, you’re going to be an operator and you got to learn quick and they watch your moves. They watch everything about you. We knew that we we’re going overseas and the goal for the Platoons is we compete against every other platoon at the SEAL team for the hottest spot overseas. How do we do that? By how well we train under the instruction the instructors relay the information and rate each platoon. At the end of all of it, they compile the scores in the information then they say, well, this platoon has really just been well-rounded. These guys deserve to get their pick and we’re going to shoot for the hottest spot. We want to go to the place where the worst terrorist, the bad, the biggest action is, the craziest time. That’s who we want to go to because we want to fight. I was very fortunate, went over Alpha Platoon. Alpha Platoon got number 1 so we got the hottest spot. We went to Hominy[?] in 2005 with the option to cross between Hominy[?] and Ramadi. Ramadi at that time was becoming the safe haven. The betting round for the old Fallujah. It was bad. It was only, I think they said it was maybe 15 or 20% occupied by native forces. So it was really cowboys and Indians go in there. See what’s going on and try to disrupt the network, the mechanism, whatever it is. I remember the first time we drove through Hamadi[?], things exploding everywhere and you’re like whoa, this is a real reality check. As a new guy, you don’t get to do a whole lot in the beginning. So you don’t get to lead the charge and lead the guys into shooting, going through doors and that, you don’t get to do any of that stuff. You’re really in the back of the train and observing, and getting ready in case you need to be actionable. But you’re really more in an observation because you’re brand new We were about three months in their deployment, we had knocked out quite a bit of operations at that point, a lot of what they call direct action mission. So going after specific target and either taking them back with us or killing them. At the back of the three-month marker, we were coming back from a mission and we were driving down the road route Michigan, the most dangerous road in Iraq. I’m from Michigan so wouldn’t that be unique? We hit a roadside bomb. It exploded so fast, it was the most violent and it wasn’t even terrifying at that moment because it was so fast. My brain couldn’t comprehend what just happened. But all I knew is that I was ejected from the turret into the air, and that’s how I got my nickname later on was Birdman is because I went flying which was great as a good upgrade. I was like, “I’m good with that.”

John: The perfect last name for a let’s just be honest

Ryan: Fairly last name. But what came from that was I was hurt pretty bad and I saw teammates bleeding out pretty bad. I had to jump on them and help and our teamwork so cohesively to help get everybody back together. It was so unique. We worked so well together, we cared about each other so much, everybody lived. We work on each other and got everybody back to the hospital and everybody lives. A horrific time but ultimately a great outcome.

John: Ryan, let’s go back. When you were deployed prior to this horrific accident, how much is the… Obviously, non-veterans like me and so many others that get to enjoy the beauty and the freedom that we get to enjoy because of heroes like you and all of your colleagues in the military, how much is the reality of being in war time in the situations that you were put in post SEAL Team 7 training versus the glorified versions we see on film, and versus what you were expecting as a SEAL Team 7 trainee? On a 3-part basis, you’re in there, you’re in the reality of it now, you remember the training part, and of course, we all know the glorified film versions, how different, how nightmarish was the reality versus what your training prepared you for? Was it much more than you expected or was it pretty much what you trained up for what to expect? And was it what you expected when you got there prior to the Humvee accident?

Ryan: Great question. We train a lot. We train very, very hard. And the reason for that is so that when we get to a place where we are measured up against, we at least can counter that issue. But ultimately, you can only be so prepared for an ambush and that’s what happens in war. Most of the time, it’s tactics ambush. When you get into country, the first thing you don’t realize is you’re breathing in this, saying that’s all just floats in the air is like powder and so you’re breathing the scent costly. You’re destroying your lungs, and it’s just nasty, and it’s a thousand degrees outside and it smells horrible, because their irrigation system is terrible. Sewages runs amok through the cities, and there’s nobody doing any command and control of cleanup because it’s war so it’s been demolished. You see the aftermath of what’s already been done. My reality check right out of the game was seeing these children playing in Rubble in big old piles of trash and searching through the trash to find a soccer ball or something. And you look at that as a young child, that’s what their upbringing is and that’s as good as it’s going to get for them. It’s so sad. Then you look at some of the other people that just couldn’t get out of country and so they’re stuck with this scenario, and there’s a war happening in real time around them, so that’s their lifestyle. There’s that side of the house. The other side of the house is, yes, there are bad people, they’re evil, and they care less about your life. They want to kill you, they want to end you, and they could care less about their own to the tune of they’ll kill themselves and their family too. That was so shocking for me. I was 21 years old. We made the joke I was a Navy SEAL before I could legally drink a beer, true. You’re seeing this at a young age when I don’t even consider a 21-year old an adult. I think they’re still…

John: A kid. You were a kid!

Ryan: Yep. You look at this stuff though, and that really helped humble me to a point of really understanding the greater understanding of life in like when I come back and there’s somebody arguing over silly stuff, it’s pointless, there’s no reason for that. Because the reality is we live in this country which is an amazing country. And we have the opportunities to do what we do and go anywhere and buy anything and do all this stuff without that fear, where this is their everyday constant and they don’t even understand what this has to offer here. So it slows you down and it humbles you. The chaos, it [inaudible]. Sometimes you’ll be doing work for weeks on end when you’re just operating, operating, operating and you’re getting shot at half the time or most of the time and you’re in text which are gunfights and then you have explosions, IEDs were so prevalent in Iraq in the beginning of the war which is a coward way of fighting but that’s what they do. There’s all these elements where when you’re in a gunfight, you’re ambushed and when you’re with an IED, you’re completely ambushed but you’re not actually fighting anything. So your element, your mind is always on red alert. So that’s trying to come down off of that. That’s why it’s so difficult to get back from overseas and then move back into a family setting, move back into a peaceful setting because you just lived super vigilant 100 miles an hour and now you’re supposed to flip the switch and turn it off. We get good at compartmentalizing things but compartmentalizing is only to compartmentalize to finish the mission, it should not be to compartmentalize forever so that the stuff in your bag ends up exploding on you and you fall a victim to it and then you can’t get out of your own way. It was interesting after getting blown up. I didn’t really do many missions as a gunfighter per se, I was more on the observation role as a new guy but I got to go into some houses which was cool. Just grateful to be part of the team in there. After the explosion, I was sent home with the rest of the crew to heal up, and then when I got redeployed after I healed about back to… I went up to the Philippine Islands for that duration of the deployment which was nice. It was a nice dial down. Then from there, I said to myself that I wanted to be better of an operator, I wanted to be a more efficient operator, and for me were gunfighters. Could I in fact be a better gunfighter? Well, yes, maybe I should try for sniper school. I put my hand in the hat to say I want to be a sniper because it’s the hardest school we have. It’s stressful and it’s technical. I was like that’s what I want to do, I want to challenge myself. I was very blessed to make it through sniper school, and become a sniper in a team lead sniper to run our snipers.

John: Wow. Were you deployed post that or what happened in your in your military career post sniper school?

Ryan: I were deployed two more times to Iraq after getting blown up and both as a sniper. One, I was a team leader and so I got to carry the sniper capability, but I was more of a leading the guys type scenario for combat operations and being in the psalter. I also deployed to Lebanon to a small deployment to teach our counterpart over there, which was really, really unique, really cool to see. Lebanon’s a beautiful place if you haven’t been to diamond in the rough. But, yes, a lot of operations, nothing more than anybody else. And definitely, I was not on anything that’s so significant that people say, “Oh, you should write a book about it.” I did my time, I offered value to the team. I loved the brotherhood, it was just everything. You eat, sleep and breathe the brotherhood. I don’t think it’s the best place for a wife and kids. That’s why I chose to stay single for my career because I felt I could just dedicate myself and not have anything back side so that I was having any stressors. But, I did eight years in the service and I thought every moment of it was wonderful.

John: What year was did you leave the service?

Ryan: I went into the service in 2002. I got out in 2010.

John: Let’s go back. You’re recovering from the Humvee accident, the Humvee explosion not an accident. How long did it take you to heal up? I understand a lot of the injuries, besides the mental and emotional injuries, were burns. Can you share a little bit about recovering from the Humvee explosion and some of your injuries and some of your colleagues’ injuries that got you starting thinking about burn trauma and things of that such?

Ryan: Certainly. I wasn’t fully healed up when I redeployed and that’s just how it goes. There’s nothing worse than being away from your team. I don’t care how bad I am. It’s just as long as I’m there, I’m good.

John: They’re your family.

Ryan: So I found a loophole because I wanted to get back overseas and they were like, “You’re not going anywhere.” “How do I get back overseas?” “You’re not going anywhere.” I’m like, “Okay.” Then I found out that there was a UAV, is like a drone school and it was a short school like two weeks and they needed the capability overseas. I said, well, can I go to drone school [chuckles] then? Because they need capability and apparently that capability supersedes my health in the Platoon and so is a loophole to go 2 weeks to the school, go overseas. I threw the plane up, I crashed it right away. It was the last time I flew a plane and I was back overseas with my dad as it was great.

John: [laughter] Wow.

Ryan: To your question though, the healing portion of it. It took my burns 6-7 months to fully heal up to where it wasn’t really noticeable anymore. When I get suntan’s now you can see the burns. I was very lucky where they were superficial burns for a second degree. A lot of the guys in the Hummer were worse off at 30 degree which is full thickness to the skin, needed a lot more attention. We had shrapnel through the cockpit that hit us all. My recovery time really 6-7 months fully, but in the hospital short term and then I was out and recovering at home. The physical side, it is what it is. The mental side, the emotional side, that’s the real kicker because it didn’t hit me right then and there, and it certainly didn’t hit me during my career until the very end and then aftermath, that’s when it really started to get a hold of me.

John: Ryan, your history is again more than inspirational. And again, I hear everything that you’ve done and during your military service and again, thank you for your service. There’s so few heroes in this great country. All of you deserve to be thanked every day by everyone that you come in touch with. You’ve done a lot since you’ve gotten out of the military and that’s the real today what I want to share with our audience besides your great history. I want you to get into a little bit talking about why and how you establish Sons of the Flag, Bird’s Eye View Project, Human Performance Project and American Extreme. I know it’s a lot, but it’s a new year and these are very important topics that I really wish you could share with our audience. Let’s start little bit chronologically. Let’s go back to around 2012 and Sons of the Flag and how and why you started Sons of the Flag?

Ryan: Sons of the Flag, when you get out of the service and there’s some that tell a lot of hats today and it’s just in general, people who have been doing something for career. If tomorrow you decided to pack up your entire office, say I’m done or for some reason I’ve just had my span and I’ve got to go home. I’m out. You’re going to have some troubles, no matter what. Unless you absolutely hate what you’re doing and you just know you have to get out right, leaving something is tough. For me, when I got out, I moved to Dallas Texas. I was supposed to take well paying super high-level job and everything was set up and it didn’t happen. I found myself in this precarious position where I had no funding coming in, I didn’t know anybody out here in Dallas, and I just given up a career that was with some of the greatest people in the world. I was rocked. Better thing for me to do is because I didn’t want to hurt anybody but myself is just drink. So I’ll just turn to the bottle and start drinking. I realized quickly though that it didn’t get me anywhere. It’s just one of those things where…

John: Ryan, let’s pause there. How common is that? How common is the feeling of being lost with military veterans that come home? They didn’t have anything and they feel lost, and they turn to something that’s going to have a negative consequence drinking, drugging, or even other things. How common do you feel that that is?

Ryan: That’s extraordinary common common to see. It’s just the same thing as a pro athlete when they can’t play anymore. I don’t want to be a commentator, I want to be on field with the guys or whatever it is and it’s tough. It’s tough because it’s not even about the mission, it’s about the men and when you don’t have that camaraderie every single day where you can completely be transparent and you can be yourself. The thing was unique about me is I was a skateboarder. A lot of these guys were triathletes in their body liked to work out hard and gunfighters and all this stuff, and I’m the skateboarder who wear skate shoes and they accepted me for who I was as long as I did my job. That’s how it should be. You be you, I’m going to be me, perform and perform to your highest level and I’ll know if you’re not. But if you’re doing that, do your thing. I even got a bunch of my guys to go skateboarding with me, that was funny. I wish I had a camera back then because just seeing them eat crap on the ground, I was dying, he’s hardcore up, tears are falling all over the place. Transition for me was difficult as it is for many people, and there’s ways that we could get around it which we could talk about in a future podcast. For me, Sons of the Flag was an opportunity popped up out of nowhere and because you got to seek these things. I was yearning for something, I wanted to do something for the greater good, I wanted to do something for our community, and I just didn’t know how and I wanted to be a part of something. I met an army ranger who was severely disfigured from an IED. Looking at his burns and the injury and seeing like that could have been me, oh my gosh, and I said, “What are they doing for you guys today?” He said, “Look at me.” I was like, “I’m looking,” and he said, “This is as good as it gets buddy. I’ve been to three dozen surgeries. This is as good as it gets for me.” I was like, “That’s bull crap.” I went home and I studied all night long and I seriously could not find anything open source to give him because my idea was I’m going to find something. We’re going to go ask a few people for some dollars, we’re going to raise some capital, we’re going to go through this treatment, we’re going to get him on his way.” It wasn’t there. I call him the next day and I said, “Dude, I struck out. If I were to start something on your behalf, would you join me?” He goes, “Brother, I’m in.” That was the birth of the Sons of the Flag. Just as mom and pop shop charity just to find this one individual answers, his name was Captain Sam Brown and to get him on his way. What I did not realize is that we were standing on this tip of the iceberg that hadn’t been touched since Vietnam. We released the information out about who we were, raised a couple dollars the first year really mom and pop shop and then I got reached out to buy a firefighter from DC who said, “I love what you’re doing. I have three boys in the military and I’m a career firefighter in DC. I would love if you would expand your horizons to the fire community, and I’d like to be your team leader in DC.” Well, I was like, “Wow.” That was absolutely a fit and my grandfather after World War II was a firefighter for 30 years in Detroit. So I’m like, “Of course, we’re going to fire, but we just weren’t ready but we have to act on this and now we have a team leader running a chapter in DC,” and I don’t even know what we’re doing as an organization and then it spread like wildfire through the community of fire. We were asked to go do the keynote speech at all the big Fire Conference has published another big manuals and then it started to spread. The idea was let’s create a team across a task force around the country where that team leader can go gain us access to the burn unit so we can establish a relationship, find out their capitals needs list and then go and start an event there, raise capital, keep the money local, help them with their needs, get them on their way. And so that started to grow to where we’re in 38 states now. We’re ten years old, and we’ve got fourteen partnered burn units. The idea for us was to break it into 2 programs that were meaningful. One, how do we help the patient? How do we help them recover directly with real surgery from reconstructive surgeons? Now when anybody goes to Sons of the flag if you’re a burn patient, come to us, you’re our family, you got a voice with us and we’re going to help direct you to the best surgeons in the country so that you can get the surgery that you need to get you on your way. The other side to it is, and this doesn’t go for veteran first responder only, it goes for everybody in the United States of America, pediatric to adult, civilian, military, first responder, we covered on everybody, a burn is a burn. The other side to it as most of our reconstructive burn surgeons are older. So what’s going to happen? There’s going to be a mass exodus. When they start retiring at that cyclic rate, we’re in trouble because there’s only about 300 accredited burn surgeons nationwide. So our idea was okay we got to put together a scholarship program, and so we now fund doctors in the residency to become burn reconstructive fellows where we scholarship them for a year, they go through the burn training and then they become a burn surgeon. Right now, we fund 50% of all new burn surgeons in the nation. Within the next five years, we’re going to own that completely the United States so that way people know go to Sons of the Flag if you want to become a burn surgeon.

John: Ryan, I know we’re here today. We’re going to be talking about what you’re going to be doing in February. For our listeners and viewers to find Ryan and what he’s doing in February, this amazing journey, you could go to americanextreme.com. But before we get talking about what you’re doing there, give a shout out for the URL for Sons of the flag please so people can find you there that need help or want to support or just get involved and support that great organization that you and others have created and run today.

Ryan: Absolutely. If you’re a burn survivor, if you’ve got a family member that’s been burned, if you are somebody who wants to support an event or just be a part of something, go check out sonsoftheflag.org, simple as that.

John: sonsoftheflag.org. I love it. Then you also went on to found the Bird’s Eye View Project. Can you explain a little bit about what that is?

Ryan: Absolutely. In high-level, I always looked at one charity doesn’t change the world and so we all need to work together and a lot of people don’t want to do that. Our idea was how can we work with not just burns, but how can we work with different veteran and first responder causes so that if you took that patient and drop them in the epicenter, now they’re getting attacked from multiple different causes to truly and holistically help them out? I have an amputation, I have a burn, I have this, I have a place to go for each one of them and they’ve been vetted. That’s what Bird’s Eye View was is to vet these organizations and then partner with them so that we could go out and do 1 or big 2 big fundraisers a year, raise the capital, spread the awareness about these causes and then deploy the money which was a secondary thing, but deploy money to these causes to continue to help patients. The idea from Bird’s Eye View Project came from me trying to take what I love and I’m passionate about with something that makes me whole, and parley them into something that I could do. And so that’s extreme sports for extreme needs. If I go do crazy things, which we’re going to talk about in a second, can we get people to follow? If people were truly engaged because they’re like, “Oh, Birdman’s going to just about kill himself here, I’m going to watch that.” “Oh and by the way, he just asked for a simple $5 donation to support these causes right here. I can do that.” Now that money gets deployed, we’re moving things forward and so that’s what Bird’s Eye View became as a consortium.

John: If that’s not enough, you went on to write a book called Sons of the Flag: Real Accounts from the last 100 years of American Service. Share a little bit about that.

Ryan: I’m always Smitten by… There’s one thing that I feel is missing in a lot of these books and that’s why. A lot of people talk about what and what’s very interesting, but why don’t we last for so long? It’s the why that drives you to do it forever. I wanted to go answer that question but when I went to go write it I’m like, “My God, am I a hypocrite?” Because I’m answering for just myself. But if I answer this for every single veteran that’s ever served the United States in the world forever and I’m saying this is the why, I could be completely wrong. I went and recruited a veteran from every war, from World War II to present day and I sent this back in chronological order from present day all the way to World War II and I asked them their why. I narrate the book, and each one of them have their chapter where they get to discuss their why of service. I’m not going to give anything away, but it’s very unique how it all seems to follow suit all the way through.

John: I assume that’s on Amazon and all other great platforms that you can buy books?

Ryan: Absolutely.

John: Sons of the Flag: Real Accounts from the last 100 years of American Service. Unbelievable. For most people, [chuckles] you still look so young. To have all that, that’s a career too what you’ve already done, Ryan. Now we’re going to move on to originally why I asked you to come on the show Impact Podcast, to talk about the Human Performance Project and what you’re doing with American Extreme. What was the impetus to create the Human Performance Project and the 7-day challenge event that is just incredibly exciting but incredibly challenging as well obviously?

Ryan: It’s amazing that we’re having this talk right now because I started this specifically for one person for one reason as I usually do, because I see a problem in an 8[?] and I want to fix it. This is crazy. I got a call in 2019 that my sniper partner killed himself, and it was a shot through the heart that it’s one of those things that you can’t recover from. David was not just our platoon mate, he wasn’t just my sniper partner, he was our platoons true north, he was the guy that we could go to who always had a smile on his face who always had the right answer. He was always the good dude. I lost my swagger when he took his life. I know this podcast can be heard in a few days after, but today we’re filming is January 2nd, today four years ago, he took his life.

John: Wow. This is a blessing then that this worked out. You and I didn’t plan it this way, you and I just have been in contact the last couple of weeks. So it’s truly an honor and his memory to be taping this today, and be able to get the word out about his great life and your a great life and all of your colleagues and what you guys do for all of us in this country for freedom. Talk a little bit about those suicide because it doesn’t get enough attention in this country. It’s still in so many ways a taboo subject. Suicide among veterans, it’s so unpredictable, talk a little bit about this.

Ryan: I’ve seen two sides of this because we’ve constantly tried to think about how do you get to that place? I haven’t had that feeling but I still have a massive heart for it, and I think there’s two sides of it. One is a getting to a place in life where you feel you offer zero value to the world where they’re hopeless, and then the other side to it is truly the physiological brain, the components of what we do from the blast wounds and all that stuff for concussions that send you down a different path where you might not be thinking correctly because your brain is at its ultimate and and it’s letting you know. So there’s many different things that are a catalyst and the problem is we don’t have a direct answer on here’s the reason. But I do know this, they did a study. It was in 2001 where they tried to bring some some knowledge to the numbers. And what they said was that the two wars since 911, we’ve lost roughly 7,500 sorry active duty military to killed in combat and killed in training, 7,500. Since 911, same time frame, over 30,000 committed suicide. You look at these numbers and it’s staggering and there’s not enough being done about it and I’m so tired of it. I’ve lost too many teammates to suicide, and I’m so tired of hearing these things and not doing anything. I don’t want to be the guy sitting there anymore saying that sucks and feeling bad when I could be doing something to move these things forward. And again I go back to I’m no saint and I’m not some healer or a scientist so I can fix anything, I just know that when I directionally challenge my efforts, I can get stuff done. And if I can put a team together and feel the same way, we’re going to go crush the mission. That’s exactly what we’ve done here is I have started a for-profit company called American Extreme so that I don’t have to put the burden on all the overhead for the things that we have to do in the future for our charities. But, we really rely on extreme sports, we do high-level high octane things, we make documentaries, we host crazy events that people can participate in, and then we study and look at human physiology from a human performance level. My idea for this is right after David, I got the call about David Metcalf who was a legend. David O Metcalf. I asked myself the question, why is this happening? My thesis would become it’s more than just the brain, it’s physiological as a whole. If you ask somebody to go do a bicep curl and go do 10 of them, sure, they’re going to get 10 bicep curls in and then they’re going to be a little bit tired. Asking go do 50, they’re going to be smoked, asking go do 1,000, their body will not work anymore. That’s exactly what we’re asking these soldiers, these first responders to do, is we are taxing them because they are willing to do it day in and day out because they are worried about the reputation or they just want to perform to the highest level and they will take themselves past fatigue into complete exhaustion because it’s about mission. Well, after 20 years of doing that without rebooting their body ever, you wonder why they’re getting out such catastrophic issues. I believe there is a function of the military that is purely brain-related from concussions and blast wounds and TB eyes, traumatic brain injuries that are what is causing a number of these suicides but not all. The others science of the house and I look at this purely from looking at the veteran, the first responder community, firefighters are not getting traumatic brain injuries like military would yet they are taking their life at a cyclic rate. But, they’re doing the same type of environment job. They’re still being asked a task. Every single third day, they have to go crush themselves, go train to run, go run on these calls, go see horrific things, and so it all is a combination of physical mental, emotional, and spiritual. If we’re not really focusing on those pillars of their house and making sure that those pillars are completely even so that it can put the house on top of it or that nice top on it, they’re always going to have that problem. My vision was, if we started to study physiology and then take it all the way back to the brass tacks base level again to introduce this information back into a guy’s mind. I don’t care that you can run 100 miles or you can do that. What if I were to start day 1 and say today, I want you to go and achieve running one mile at a nice slow pace and then we’re going to think about your feeling after that, and then we’re going to think about your hydration after that and then we’re going to talk about your sleep tonight. Then over time, we’re going to start building in just the basics so that you are now building your foundation again, and then you can put whatever home you want on top of it once you’ve gotten a homeostasis. So then the idea behind that would say, I want to do a physiological project where I can bring in scientists and researchers and then performance athletes, veterans, active duty, special operations and the subject matter experts to look at physiology and put together a study so then we can then develop a manual that a fourteen-year old child can pick up. Because it’s not just about the broken veteran in the first fire, it’s about the kid who’s told that McDonald’s is an easy access every single day and candy is a better option, or candy is being fed at school and we don’t even know his parents. What if we gave the kids, the option to understand how to live with true north and mine true homeostasis? I’m getting into sports and fourteen, everybody wants play football and soccer and all this stuff. How do I do it right? What am I putting into my body? How can I do it where I’m 14, and I can’t afford anything? Can I do it cost-effective? Can I do it with just myself? Building a manual that’s built for a 14-year old child is also built for a military person who’s struggling, who does not want to Google to do the research. When we put together this whole idea in my head, I reached out to a buddy of mine is a doctor at Harvard and I said, what do you think about this [inaudible] absolutely on point?” I said, “Well, I’m on point [inaudible].” “We got to do something about it.” I was like, “Got it.” I had come up with an idea eight years ago to base jump all seven continents and seven days just for fun. It was going to be a couple of my teammates and I like, ‘Let’s go raise some capital. I’m just going to have fun,” and it was in one year.

John: Ryan, roll. Let’s pause there. For our listeners and viewers who don’t know what BASE jumping is, explain what BASE jumping is to start with?

Ryan: BASE jumping is an acronym for building, antennas, spans, bridge, Earth. So jumping off of an inanimate object with one parachute system, you don’t have time for a secondary, risking it all. Seriously insane. The most primal sport you can do. It’s legendary.

John: That’s a BASE jump. your vision eight years ago was to do 7 BASE jumps in 7 days?

Ryan: No, we’re going to do 7 BASE jumps. We’re going to do one BASE jump on each continent in one year.

John: That was your original. Got it. Pretty wild.

Ryan: Never been done and I was like it was for us. It was not a public thing, it was just for us.

John: And did you guys do it?

Ryan: We did not because we you know at that point in time, Sons of the Flag was taking priority, I just shafted. When I came up with this idea for this Human Performance Project, I was like, “What could really turn people’s heads because who cares about a [inaudible] or an event, it’s about what can we gain off of it? But if we’re not going to tell the world what we’re doing, how are we going to get them to purchase the manual to live with true north and mind?” I brought that 7 concept back out of the shelf and I said, you know what, because it’s a physiological testing, the only way to really get there to get back from it is to break ourselves. What if we were to not only scout and go 7 continents but we were to run a full marathon on all 7 continents, and then we were to plunge or swim on all 7 continents in 7 days and let’s call it 7x?

John: Wow. That was your vision when David passed away. This is the catalyst, started making you home down on what you were going to do?

Ryan: Yeah, because of David’s passing and this is the only reason that this project exists. I’m going to be honest with you, I wish this project didn’t exist because there will be no other reason that I would have ever come into moving this project the way it is forward without David’s passing. David is written all over this, David is leading us through this mission. And so I love that because I’m want to keep David’s name alive, but at the same time I just wish she was here and that was that. But we’ve got a long way to go. So 7x is seven scout out of seven full marathons, seven plunges on seven continents in seven days.

John: Let’s break it down. First of all, when is this actually happening? Today is January 2nd, 2023. This is this podcast will be airing in a couple of days. When is this event Happening? How do people get involved to support to join, to be involved with all the greatness that you’re involved with in terms of the documentary that’s going to be done, the democratization of information on physical, mental, emotional, spiritual growth that’s going to be done and everything else that you’re planning here?

Ryan: We’re January 2nd like you said, February 14th this year so…

John: Which is Valentine’s Day by the way probably.

Ryan: We are going on 7x deployment which is we’re going to take off from our perspective places and fly commercially to Cape Town, and then we’ll stage to get on our airplane and then that starts the deal. And so we are going to time it based off of when we get to Antarctica, we land on the ground, when we get up into the plane to do our skydive, when I leave the plane that will trigger the time clock to start the 7-day window. And so then we have 160 hours to complete mission.

John: You’re the first man out of that plane?

Ryan: It won’t matter if I’m the first or not because we have videographer jumpers that are going to be going, but honestly it’s just when I jump and I want it to be that way. It’s because I’m probably the slowest and weakest athlete out of everybody we got.

John: By the way, I doubt that. But let’s talk about that. How many operators are going from from the cross disciplines that you just mentioned? How many civilians like me are going? What’s the cost to be involved? What’s the cost of support, et cetera? I want to get it all out there.

Ryan: Sure. So we have a scientific team and health, our human performance team coming with us in the support for that. So we have about thirty eight people on our side of the house going with us, and not every one of them are used for the scientific side but the majority of them are. Then we also have some support for the other side of the house. This is how we funded this whole project, was we made this whole thing available for people to join with us and become part of the tribe. When we say become part of the tribe, we’re not just saying fund this, give us some money and then you can come and be a bystander just watching this happen. No, we’re going to kick your ass with us. It’s going to be amazing. Do you want to live hard and be hard and do something hard? I want everybody who’s been a benefactor of this project to lead this project feeling like they truly gained something in their heart and soul for them not just for others. We’ve been funding this by selling seats on the plane for people to go on the experience of a lifetime. They are not required to do the marathons. In fact, we were not going to let them do the marathon’s unless they are a true marathon and current marathon runner to get at least a mile, they can do a 5k on each continent. They get super unique package deals on each location that our experiential that are not touristy cookie cutter. We deployed a team of Green Berets around the world earlier this year to go set these things up from the Good Ol Boy networks that we have so it’s not like you can go in and get access. You can pay a half million dollars and still never do what we’re doing. We’ve set it up for a VIP to come with us. The seat is a $100,000 and that’s all inclusive. From the time you get on our plane to the time that we finished in Dallas, Texas, food, sleep, everything that we do is completely covered. That is literally the most unbelievable bargain for this life-changing experience I’ve ever heard in my life. It’s just incredible.

John: How many VIPs are going, or how many people have bought those seats? How many do you have left?

Ryan: We have 40 seats available and we’ve sold 34 seats right now so we have six seats available.

John: Wow. Again, for our listeners and viewers who want to join, who want to learn more what Ryan is doing, you go to americanextreme.com. Let’s unpack the whole journey. So you starting in Antarctica, you fly down to Cape Town, you get on Chartered plane and you get down to Antarctica, you guys jump out of the plane. Where you going from there? Go through the 7 and and walk us through this

Ryan: Certainly. So we’re going to a very very extreme most exclusive place and Antarctica. It’s called White Desert and it’s very expensive to go there, and they have done a incredible job of making this place. It literally looks like Mars on a marshmallow. It is crazy. They’ve got pot set up, they’ve got full staff, you can eat, you can do skydiving, you could do all kinds of stuff there, it is insane. They spent a lot of money putting this together. And again, we’re taking us, Airbus A340-300. So it’s a 400 Cedar airplane all to ourselves. It’s a massive overkill for what we need, but it’ll get the job done and it’s the safest.

John: So the operators in the VIP, overall, how many people are on this journey together about?

Ryan: 80-85

John: 80-85. Got it. That includes support and everything else along the way. Got it. So started in Antarctica, let’s keep going on the journey here.

Ryan: We get to Antarctica, the first thing we do is we’re going to actually climatize for seconds, [inaudible] and then the jump team and this is not just the test subjects that are going to be doing this, this is also a professional athletes that are safety advisors in jumping as well. We have a battery of guys that are going to be jumping. We’ll get loaded in the plane and then we’re going to skydive. When we land, we’ve already started the 168 hours and then we start our run during the first portion of the run, all the VIPs are encouraged to come run with us because who doesn’t want to at least log a mile or two in Antarctica, we’ll be running around a nice runway. There is no runway there, it’s ice. You’re laying a humongous big bird on Ice. It’s crazy.

John: Let me say, do the VIPs also get to do tandem jumps with the operators as well if they want?

Ryan: Not in Antarctica.

John: Oh, not in Antarctica.

Ryan: In Antarctica, the winds and all that, it’s a little shifty so…

John: Got it. So it’s run and it’s getting to see one of the most unique places on this whole planet nobody else does?

Ryan: We’re going to make it to go do something unique. So they’re actually going to go mountaineering and ice rock climbing. We’re doing the final piece of our marathon, because nobody wants to sit there and watch a Marathon run and is like, “Oh my gosh.” So they go to this experience of a lifetime. They’re going to have wonderful ciao. They’re legitimately going to die in Antarctica with ease. Then I put in the contract for the VIPs. The only thing I require of everybody besides have a good attitude is you’re going to ice plunge. So you’re going to cold Plunge in Antarctica. Because I want everybody to get a picture of them in the ice in Antarctica because they will look at that forever, put it up on their wall and say, “I did this.”

John: That’s the smartest. That’s so brilliant. You’re not only obviously a great operator, that’s beautiful, I think that’s just incredible. From Antarctica, where do you guys go next?

Ryan: Right now we’re going to be flying. So once we finish our full testing, we’re going to get back on our plane, we’re flying back to Cape Town to refuel, and there we’re crossing up and over to Perth, Australia. For the test subject side of the house, it’s going to be wash, rinse, repeat every single day. A jump followed by a marathon, followed by a plunge in the water. But when we start again, everybody will get their mild guaranteed so they can move. We have roughly 55 hours of flight time. So when we get out, we want people moving and we’re going to force that into this curriculum so that you’re not just stagnant.

John: Well, I assume the flight time is the rest of recovery period for everybody that’s on this thing. There’s not a lot of rest of recovery happening on the ground?

Ryan: Correct. There’s some hotel and there’s some sleep and all that factored into the 168 on different locations. So people showers guaranteed everyday, meals guaranteed every day, plus pure supplements, good supplementation to keep you driving and going. We will have alcoholic beverages for the non-athlete test subjects on the plane. We’re also going to play poker tables in the plane. So, in case people have fun and just enjoy these little activities and there’s a lot of business activity too. There’s a lot of people in this who are going to be sharing and saying, “Oh, you do this? You do that?” That’s really cool. This is how a lot of guys are expensing it towards their companies. The saying, “This is business opportunity.” Business development at school which is true. I met with each one of our VIPs to and that’s the biggest thing is, do you have a good attitude? Because I hand selected each person on the team, I want to make sure that you’re good to bring into this vibe. I’ve already had to tell two people [inaudible]` their attitudes were just two egomaniac and I’m like, “You’re not going to fit in well here.”

John: So from a sociological point of view, out of the VIPs, the 40 that are coming, how many are men or how many women?

Ryan: So we don’t have any women that have purchased the seat yet. We do have 5-6 women that are going with us in the team. The problem that I have is I just I know men, I know too many man, I don’t know women.

John: No, there’s no problem. I just figured I’d ask. So now you get to Perth where we wash, rinse and repeat every day, where are you going after Perth?

Ryan: The VIP experience those, we’ve partnered with our Brent or our Australian SAS special operations counterparts. So they’re getting an exclusive tour of the Australian SAS museum which they don’t open the doors. This is super cool.

John: That’s super cool.

Ryan: Again, we wanted to make it something where at the end of 7x when your body says to you the week after what did you do last week? And you’re like, [laughter] I don’t know. How do you explain how much time do you have?

John: It sounds like every day is going to be a lot of experience that they can literally talk about singularly for the rest of their life. Nonetheless, putting 7 of them together in 7 days.

Ryan: That’s exactly right. This is a bucket list, item x7, insane. And on top of that, we’ve put in a 30-minute section on each continent to basically ask you to shut your cell phones down. For 30 minutes, you’re going to be present in nature and see the reality in the beauty of how awesome we are living. So, once we get done with Perth and we’re going to cruise to Dubai. Really unique the experience there, I have a battery of things that are lined up right now. There’s indoor skiing and snowboarding and then there’s also having dinner at the Burj Al Arab. Apparently, there’s a dinner underwater, which is unique [chuckles]. Then I believe that they’re already sectioned off to for… There’s a deepest pool in the world to dive. So it’s a plethora of things to go do that are very unique. Again for us the same thing, this one we might be able to BASE jump as well. We’re working on it right now but this one would be the Princess Tower which is a huge tower adjacent to the beach. It would just be another unique thing to study because BASE jumping is much more dangerous and much more gut-wrenching than a skydive. So can capture that information, heart rate, variability, and all these things and understand what is this doing for us fight or flight? Once we do Dubai, then we’ll cruise to Cairo. And in Cairo, this is where our VIPs get a tandem skydive over the pyramids which is absolutely incredible like jumping over one of the 7 Wonders of the World.

John: Come on cream. That doesn’t happen. You can live a lot of lifetimes and that’s just not happening.

Ryan: That’s right. And then they’ll get a walk through the pyramids, of course because you cannot go there and not touch the Sphinx or at least see the Sphinx and then go check on her. It’s okay to get that. We’re working on maybe some camel riding [laughter]. Then we shoot out up to London. And London is a very exciting. I’m so sad that I don’t get to participate in this one because when everybody else is having the fun after we’ve completed Marathon, we’re sleeping and we’re fueling and sleeping. But they have this thing called a beefeaters where it’s believed in the London Tower. It’s a very exclusive group that gets together. It’s invite only, you have to wear a suit and tie like James Bond, and you have this wonderful place you go to have cocktails and eat incredible meal and just dial it down with feel professional. It’s really neat. I’m all about James Bond, that’s like my thing so the fact that I’m missing this in London pisses me off.

John: I didn’t get that. Why you missing this?

Ryan: We’ll be at marathon 5 [inaudible].

John: Oh yeah, you’re missing, got to rest up. After we talked about the VIP experience, I want to go back to your experience on this. So what happens after London then?

Ryan: We cruise all the way down to Cartagena, Colombia, South America, beautiful place. We’re going out to a place called Old Town at there. So really get within the old-school side of the house, because we’re not going out there for the fancy resorts and now we’re going out there for the experiential, this is Columbia, this is the place. We’re going to run around town. There’s going to be activities. Right now, we’re working on something private with the Colombian Navy for VIPs to do. Then we shoot on up for a final stunt 27 which would be Dallas, Texas just outside of Dallas [inaudible]. There’s a small little tiny, they call it a lake but it’s a pond and that’s where we’ll end up doing around that. We’ll park everybody hotels. I’m not going to release what the VIPs are going to do in Dallas, but it’s going to be very unique and they feel like they’ve actually done something challenging. But also the thing is, people have asked several times of VIPs, you don’t have to be in any specific shape in order to do these challenges. That’s the key. We’re not asking you to do full marathon. So you can have fun and enjoy and know that whatever opportunity you’re going to come up, you can actually do. The last thing I’ll say about the experiential side of the house is we have factored in which we actually sold a seat based off of this alone. When we are finished with Antarctica before we leave, we have guaranteed block time for a snowball fight against special operators, so it should be awesome.[laughter]

John: Let’s go over some of the macro details that are important still. 501 C3, this is a full right for anyone who writes a check to this, whether it’s a company or whether it’s personal, they get a right off you.

Ryan: That’s right. The [inaudible] cost a $100,000 and it’s a full right off to a 501 C3. We have a website called join7x.com, and that is the experiential treatment. If you sign up in there, it’ll go directly to me and then I respond to you to get you started.

John: Got it join7x.com. americanextreme.com also is your website. What’s going to happen to this great organization post this journey? What are some of the great benefits besides that manual that you’re going to be putting together? This is going to be made into a documentary film as well, what’s going to be the long-term benefits with the Human Performance Project and the American Extreme and everything you’re going to be doing post it? By the way, how old are you Ryan?

Ryan: I’m 39?

John: Oh my God, it’s incredible what you’ve accomplished and to be such a young man. Obviously you got runway, so many decades of life ahead of you, God willing, 100 years of life ahead of you, what’s your intent? What’s your mission and goal post this great event coming up, it starts on February 14?

Ryan: The ultimate goal personally for me is one making the manual. That’s why going to 7 continents exposes that to all 7 obviously because we’re a little different scenario, but to get as many manuals as we can sold because it’s going to only better that person that has the copy of it. A hundred percent of the net profit proceeds from the manual will go to the charities that we are supporting on this whole project in perpetuity. It’s about continually feeding them as opposed to giving them a one-time deal and then having to go, that’s go continually fundraise. Every time my manual sold, money is going to be dispersed to these causes, and that’s the goal is in perpetuity continue to fund these missions so that they can continue to help the greater good. Ultimate goal with human performance as a whole we can continue to add to it. We’re always going to focus on the basics, and so we don’t need to come up with these extraordinary lavish things. Like, “This is a new way to do this work out of wherever,” it’s about focusing on the basics and fine-tuning those basics. That’s how you become a elite. Taking this information and then talking with the government about implementing it into the military training as a human performance training block, getting it into the first responder communities as a human performance training block. Then ultimately my big goal would be education system.

John: In your mind today, I know everything doesn’t work out perfectly because perfect doesn’t exist on this planet. But on a whiteboard when you’re planning everything post the journey, when does the manual come out? Six months, a year, 2 years after the journey? When does that manual get published?

Ryan: Goal is 2023. So end of the year, we’re not sure if it’s third fourth quarter, that’s our goal but we’re not 100% certain yet. We are starting to put the outlines together right now, and getting the right to recognize the correct ghost writers in to help with that implementation because it’s got to read clear, got to read clean.

John: Does it coincide with the release of the documentary or they’re separate?

Ryan: We consider the release of the documentary our marketing opportunity and marketing arm for the manual. So the manual be ready to go when that documentary comes out to explain it.

John: You’re thirty nine years old, you’ve done a whole shit ton, excuse my French, of difficult things in your life. Level of difficulty of this physically, mentally, emotionally, for the folks like you who are actually going to be doing this, all the marathon’s, the BASE jumps, the plunges, everything, what level of difficulty here?

Ryan: The challenge is really difficult. I have a broken tibia right now. I ran a full marathon yesterday it’s not fun, but I do know this project to me is not supposed to be fun. This project to me is to really gain some answers, and get myself back in the seat of wearing the uniform because we just continually keep losing. I just lost another teammate a week and a half ago to suicide, it’s all over the news.

John: Still Team 7 SEAL mate?

Ryan: Yeah.

John: Wow.

Ryan: He was the new incoming commanding officer [inaudible]. It’s supposed to be painful. This is supposed to be hard. Everything that’s worth it is supposed to be difficult, it’s not supposed to be easy. It’s been brutal this year. The fact is we’re trying to raise capital in a time where people are truly starting to see the economic outcomes of what COVID has done. And so that’s difficult. Then I’ve dealt with a lot of people who just don’t keep their word. I’m in, I’m out, having to chase people down and dealing with people is always a unique thing. It’s been very difficult this year to try to not only be an athlete test subject and train all these miles and put all this stuff together, but then at the same time, raise this capital and ensure that we are doing this. That has been really brutal. But I know at the end of the day, when we get back February 23rd, I’m just going to have a lot of love in my heart because I know that all the struggles and all the tough times this year and last year was all because of this and we’re going to have a solid outcome.

John: About a year ago or so, I had one of the leading experts on, and I’m not a scientist, the use of micro dosing to help people mentally recover from their trauma. Is that actually making a dent in veteran affairs, or is it not even come down yet to that level of veterans getting the opportunity to take advantage of all the years of study on micro dosing and the ability to help people unwind some of their horrific trauma?

Ryan: That’s a great question. As far as any psilocybin or any psychedelic medicine, there’s a difference between Madison[?] and Slyke[?] and recreational drugs in the way that it’s used. We’ve seen tremendous gains from guys going to do these treatments to distressing themselves and there are certain stressors that are just a norm. I had two young children, my two boys, they’re 100 miles an hour all the time and they want to find each other all the time. And that’s a stressor that is just a constant, but it’s not a stressor where I’m like I’m doing with my life here. The veteran community is got through that, I actually went through a psychedelic treatment in October in New Mexico, and it was life-changing. It doesn’t fix your issues, but what it does is it helps you reset. So I want to start from scratch, I want to go moving forward and I need that help because I’m carrying

too much burden right now. So that’s fantastic. The micro dosing stuff? I’m 100% on doing it. I’m waiting for stuff to come in so that I can start testing it, because I am going to be a complete test subject for anything I could do to help the veteran first our communities. It always say that stuff, but it’s all about community If you’re a person who’s struggling, it doesn’t matter what uniform shirt you wore, if you’re struggling, you’re struggling and these struggles are real across the board. So if there’s opportunities or a medical medicine here, we got to go away from the stigmas, the stuff was wrong and it’s unacceptable, it’s God’s gift to the Earth. Everything that was planted in this Earth and on this Earth was cut was built by God from God. If we use it in the correct way, could truly help the outcome of our life. I don’t hold anything back. I certainly don’t say that, that’s not right, because it’s considered a drug, not consider it medicine. I don’t drink, I don’t do recreational drugs and trying to get rid of any kind of habit that I have like bad habit or whatnot. I chewed tobacco for a long time, quit that I was brutal by the way, because I love chewing tobacco. There’s so many different things we can do to make ourselves good habits. Invest in your health and your life. You have one of them. You only get one option, one chime one time to do it. So why don’t you feel your body correctly?

John: I’m so glad you shared your own personal experience with micro dosing. I believe in the show notes of course, we’ll put suicide prevention hotlines. I believe the new number in the United States is 988 if I’m not mistaken?

Ryan: Well, maybe.

John: I’ll make sure we put in our show notes if anyone is considering suicide, obviously, it’s not the way to go. And we’ll put some great resources in our show notes to help people. What you’re doing is just amazing. Talk a little bit about BASE jumping, level of difficulty to learn how to BASE jump. Obviously, you are an elite of the elite. But how for just civilians in terms of BASE jumping, how difficult is this and what you’re doing?

Ryan: I actually asked the elite of the elite base jumpers to join us on this team, because one of them from a safety perspective, and I love them. Every one of them were like, “We’re in.” It’s insane. This is what my buddy Duke says, it’s hilarious. He goes, “BASE Jumping is the easiest sport in the world until it goes wrong.” [laughter] That’s the truth. You have to have a minimum of 200 skydives in order to get into any type of BASE jumping course. They want you to have the understanding of discipline, the emergency procedures of a canopy. They also want you to understand canopy characteristics, how to fly, how to land it because you need to land in small areas. Once you start to get to that point, then you can start going, pay the money to go through a first BASE jump course. Two of our guys in the team run the two best in the country in the world actually. Once you go through that and it’s a progression, it’s on you. It’s big boy rules, big girl rules. I’ve gone up to exit points before that are known exit points to jump. And I just had a weird feeling, my stomach something just didn’t feel right. I was like, “I’m not feeling right right now. I’m going to just walk back down this 2-hour hike back down as opposed to jump and have a ten-second ride and get on the ground easily and right back at the car.” Because it just didn’t feel right and it’s called big boy rules, big girl rules. You know what? There’s no problems with that. You have to man or woman up and say I’m going to make a call today because that could be your life. You don’t mess around with this stuff now more than ever because I have children, I don’t BASE jump nearly as much as I used to. You have to think about these scenarios. I put an error box around everything I do mathematically. We’re jumping from 200 feet and I feel my go-to is 200 feet, maybe I’m going to jump from 250, I’ll jump from 270 just so I give myself an air box, a window of time mathematically. It’s insane when things go wrong, it becomes the most primal thing in the world because you have to fix it quick and get out of the scenario to save your life. The other side of BASE jumping though is you go to the most beautiful places in the world to do it. It’s not legal in most places in this country. So you got to go to Switzerland, and you got to go to Sweden [chuckles] and Norway, France. I twist my arm, [laughter] beautiful. The people are unique, they’re very nice and they cherish your life because they don’t want you to make bad decisions. From that perspective, it’s just such a cool thing.

John: Listen, running 7 marathons in 7 days, I know we talked about earlier before we even got on the air, is something out of a the next level rich roll timed on steroids type stuff. But on a broken tibia, I can’t even imagine what you’re mentally even getting up for that nonetheless getting through the day by day of that. How do you prepare mentally and emotionally for what’s already going to be uncomfortable if you were perfect healthy shape, but the demons and dongs that you get in training and a broken tibia obviously is a little bit of worst-case planning? How do you prepare emotionally and mentally for something like that before you get on February 14?

Ryan: I’m not looking at this as a it’s got to happen, it’s got to be finished. For me, I’m going back into that. Same mentality I had for hell week and I’m going all in, giving everything. We’re going to see what happens. But if my bone breaks, it’s a hairline fracture.

John: Got it.

Ryan: If it breaks, there are several other athletes they’re going to continue on and goes back to the room. It sucks. Yep. You finish.

John: What an attitude man. Listen, we could spend hours more today. I know you’re doing the documentary, the memoriam for David Metcalf today, David O Metcalf. I don’t want to take any more of your top precious time today, but this has been beyond an honor to have you on today Ryan, and I want our listeners and viewers again to support everything you’re up to. sonsoftheflag.org, you can buy also Ryan’s great book, Sons of the Flag: Real Accounts from the last 100 years of American Service. Besides American Extreme, talk about that direct email that goes to you if people want to sign up and become one of the last 6 VIPs that join this incredible mission.

Ryan: Go to join7x.com and it will go directly to me. At the bottom of it, is a 4 little places to fill out your information. It sends to me and then we’ll have a conversation. I will call you right after it comes into because we don’t have much time left to get you slated for clearances for all 7 continents and that. But,` this is an opportunity of a lifetime, a once-in-a-lifetime deal. You don’t want to miss it if you can afford it.

John: Ryan Birdman Parrott, first of all, thank you for your service. You are a great American hero, and thank you for making the world a better place every day of your life. Thanks again for today.

Ryan: Thank you. Honored to be here.

John: This episode of the Impact Podcast is brought to you by Closed Loop Partners. Closed Loop Partners is a leading circular economy investor in the United States with an extensive network of Fortune 500 corporate investors, family offices, institutional investors, industry experts and Impact partners. Closed Loop’s platform spans the arc of capital from venture capital to private equity, bridging gaps, and fostering synergies to scale the circular economy. To find Closed Loop Partners, please go to www.closedlooppartners.com. This episode of the Impact Podcast is brought to you by co2.com. Companies today are trying to figure out how to achieve high quality climate credentials, co2.com is the easy button for any business to go beyond offsetting and find truly impactful projects across carbon, nature and Community. CO2 provides verified metrics that can be used in reporting and messaging. Have confidence in demonstrating your climate leadership. Go to co2.com to access quality climate credentials you can trust on the road to net zero and nature positive.

John Shegerian: Do you have a suggestion for an amazing Impact guest? Go to impactpodcast.com and click ‘Be a Guest’ to recommend someone today. This edition of The Impact Podcast is brought to you by ERI. ERI has a mission to protect people, the planet, and your privacy, and is the largest fully integrated IT and electronics asset disposition provider and cybersecurity-focused hardware destruction company in the United States and maybe even the world.

John: For more information on how ERI can help your business properly dispose of outdated electronic hardware devices, please visit eridirect.com. This episode of The Impact Podcast is brought to you by Closed Loop Partners. Closed Loop Partners is a leading circular economy investor in the United States with an extensive network of Fortune 500 corporate investors, family offices, institutional investors, industry experts, and impact partners. Closed Loops’ platforms span the arc of capital from venture capital to private equity bridging gaps and fostering synergies to scale the circular economy. To find Closed Loop Partners, please go to www.closelooppartners.com.

John: Welcome to another edition of The Impact Podcast that I’m so excited today to have with us, Debbie McLean. She’s the president of the CAIA Foundation and Global Head of Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion. Welcome, Debbie to The Impact Podcast.

Debbie McLean: Thank you, John. It’s nice to be here.

John: It’s great to have you. And we got to get to know each other a little bit offline before we did this interview, so I had the pleasure of that. But we’re going to give our listeners and our viewers the pleasure of that now. I always like to open up before we get going into what you’re doing now for your day job. Talk about your childhood a little bit, where you grew up and what your greatest influences were.

Debbie: Sure. well, I will say, we’ll get into what I do. But I will say that a college friend of mine recently told me that of our college friend group, I was the last person she thought would be working in finance. So it is an interesting journey how I got here. But I grew up in Peoria, Illinois, where a lot of people laugh and say, ‘do people actually live there?’ They do. It was a great place to be raised. And my parents were both from the East Coast and they were big believers in public education. And my dad was actually a doctor. So We’re pretty privileged. And we lived in a historic section of town that was district into the lowest income poorest academically performing high school in the city. And my parents said, without doubt, I was one of four girls, ‘you girls are all going to Manuel High School.’ And that was never a question. It was never- So I went to a high school that was very diverse. It was 50% white, 50% black, and probably 80% poor. I like to say, as we were studying for the SAT and taking prep classes, a lot of the kids I was around didn’t know what the SAT was, and they were thinking about real head-heavy, much heavier kind of questions my parent survival job. Survival, survival. And two things that came out of that for me were, number one, I was very aware and conscious of the privilege that I had, the privilege that I came from. I saw some great teachers that really were so committed. And I saw students succeed from every imaginable background. But I also saw how being born into certain zip codes can make it a lot harder for people to go on to get an education and all of that. I do think that those early years of being in a super diverse environment where people were dealing with real-life problems, but in a very positive environment stuck with me. And education ended up being a big theme in my career in different industries. But I went on to go to school kind of opposite to a women’s college, Mount Holyoke College in Massachusetts. This was also super important to me because I quite frankly didn’t come in with the best academic preparation, and was really lifted up there and got a phenomenal education, and saw what it’s like to see women lead in every position available. So when you’re in that kind of environment, the question is, can you lead, how are you going to lead? So that was very formative and important. I think a piece of where I ended up and I was a politics major. I learned that I was really passionate about changing the world and dealing helping with societal problems. And after I graduated, the one thing about growing up in a town that I- By that time considered boring as it gave me a lot of motivation to find my way. So I moved to Washington, DC with a duffel bag, no job, and no place to live. I found a friend who had a floor in a basement, and I thought, well, gosh, I’ve got to do something with my time while I find my important job that is going to change the world. So maybe I can get an internship with one of the television networks. So I called ABC News in Washington and said, “Hey, I just graduated from college. Do you have any internships?” And of course, they said ‘no.’ And I got chatting with the HR person and I don’t know what we were talking about, but eventually, he said, “Well, you know, we do have one thing.” And they said, we have someone going off on maternity leave and Good Morning America, but it’s very entry-level.” And I said, “Oh, I’ll do it. What is it? I’ll do it.” And it’s only for three months. I said, “I don’t care. I’ll do it.” So long story short, I got into ABC News, a place that nobody gets into. I didn’t even really want to be in television. I was going to find my important job. And eventually made my way to World News Tonight with Peter Jennings. And so I worked on the production team with real people in the industry who were just top of their game and most respected and learned the language. It’s like learning French, you have to learn the industry. I really didn’t love television because I felt like, ‘you really only learn 10 seconds of each issue, and then you have to move on.’ But what I did love about television was shaping stories about topics that were so important for the public to understand. So I decided to move in the direction of doing more of that and found a consulting firm in Washington that was working with all the foundations, the Carnegie Foundation, the Ford Foundation. Really, it was a who’s-who list of organizations that were trying to make an impact in education reform. And I went there for a long while and ended up going to work for one of my clients, which was a nonprofit based in Boston that had been formed by David Rockefeller Jr to look at education reform in urban areas. So all of this was the thread of education. I eventually made my way into higher education and I worked at Smith College, Mount Holyoke College, women’s colleges, fundraising in Corporate & Foundation Relations. We’re working with corporations to develop multimillion-dollar programs to provide access to students usually. And that’s when I met the CEO of my current organization just through a mutual friend. And they called me one day and they said, “We have a job for you.” And at that point, I’ll talk a little bit more about what CAIA is, but we work in alternatives, which are alternatives to stocks and bonds. So it’s things like Hedge Funds and Private Equity, Venture Capital. I didn’t know what a Hedge Fund was when I got this job offer. And so I decided to take this opportunity to work with this global organization on professional education where it was really needed because the people who manage money do need to be educated. They do need to be trained. And so that was a continuation of this real focus on education that I had going way, way back

John: Okay. So you have education and the focus on, and your firsthand experience of diversity and inclusion and privilege and, and those have a lot more at stake, honestly. And then you had this great education and storytelling on a world stage in a very big network with a very big voice at the time, Peter Jennings, it was very big that was bigger than him and in his age. So now how long ago did you then step into this role that you have today at CAIA?

Debbie: So I’ve been at CAIA for 10 years. And I came in 2012. And over time took over several different large areas and sat on the executive team overseeing so CAIA, let me- I should probably give a little bit of background, but we were created in 2002. Because CAIA sits on the education side of finance. So as I said, if you’re working in what we consider high-risk, high-return areas that are not typically available to the everyday investors because we call them institutional investors, which is really code for big investors, billions of dollars. They have access to different kinds of investments, which are much more complex in many ways than just buying a stock, trading a stock kind of thing, or bond. In 2002, there was no standard for education for people working in this sector. So the people who might be running your mother or father’s pension that they’re relying on, they were a teacher or they worked for this city or any number of jobs, the people who are actually making the decisions about how to invest that money so that your parent, my parent who got a pension from the State of Illinois better know what they’re doing because this is really important money for people who need to live on it for a very long time. So our organization was founded because there was a huge need for a credential for this sector of the industry, a credential meaning if you want to have a- If you pay someone to do your taxes, you pretty much hope they have their CPA. Their certain credentials or you go to a doctor, you’re not going to go to a doctor that didn’t get their MD at medical school, hopefully. The same thing exists in our profession. So we created a credential, and it’s called CAIA and it to earn it, you have to take a series of very difficult exams. We test in 350+ test centers around the world. We have members in a hundred countries. And so we started from nothing in 2002, and we now have 13,000 members. We are in 100 countries. We have 33 chapters. We do 250 educational events a year all over the world. So we really grew into what is now the professional body for the industry. So yes, we do a credential, but we also are the unbiased voice in the industry because we’re not selling products. So when we comment on things, when we get involved in things, we like to think it matters because of the stature of our brand and our reputation. So I was going along doing my other job always with an eye towards Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion, mainly because our industry is very non-diverse, compared to most sectors. In our membership, for example, we have 16% women in our membership. And so just because of my DNA, I had always done some work to try to work on the gender piece. But really what was 2020 and the murder of George Floyd was absolutely a wake-up call for our organization as it was for so many the social justice and the inequities that exist simply could not be ignored. And that was a big moment for our organization. A lot of us were talking and our CEO was very, very involved and engaged in figuring out what is our role. What should we be doing? And certainly, if we’re not actively working to address the diversity, equity, inclusion issues in our industry, then we are most certainly part of the problem. So at that point, my position was created, which is I have two roles. One is Global Head of Diversity, Equity and Inclusion. And the other was we have a foundation, we have the CAIA Foundation, which was formed to support diversification mostly from a gender perspective. And now I’m president of the foundation as well. And we’re re-envisioning the work of the Foundation to be about diversity more broadly speaking in terms of diversity is, is many, many more things than just gender.

John: For our listeners and viewers out there who just joined us, we’ve got Debbie McLean, she’s the president of the CAIA Foundation, and also the Global Head of Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion, DEI at the CAIA Association. CAIA, you could find it at caia.org. So two years ago, or a little bit more actually now, 30 months ago, this role is created and you take over these different arms of CAIA what’s going on? How’s it going? Like where are we in the journey now?

Debbie: This is exactly how it happened, isn’t that? We had to do some restructuring because I needed to kind of move some other things off my plate to clear the room. And here this was a role that had never existed at CAIA before and a huge responsibility because there was so much to do. And the first thing I did was I went to my boss one day and I said, “Look, you know, I feel very committed. I feel very passionate. I feel like I probably know more than maybe the average person about some of these issues.” But I said, “I don’t have the foundational understanding of these issues, the groundedness, the background that I feel I need to know how to design a strategy, not just for our organization, but to actually influence the industry.” So the very first thing I did is I took a program at Northwestern University called Leading DEI, and it’s really for executives who have moved into this role because like anything, there is a strategy for doing this. Some people think maybe DEI is all about getting people together a few times and having speakers or doing some training or having a survey once in a while. But that’s not actually- Those all things are very good, but if you really want to strategically change, there’s a lot of organizational change involved.

John: So let’s go back and talk about Pre-George Floyd, the non-diversity. Maybe even the correct terminology is notoriously non-diverse. Nature of your industry. How then George Floyd was a flashpoint and an inflection point where it forced the change to happen and inspired the change to happen within your own organization. But what does a change really look like? And what are the goals when you’re creating- But basically you’ve become now an entrepreneur within an organization you’re creating, there is no path in front of you that others have trodden before, therefore, what does the change really look like? And what does success look like for you and for the organization as a whole? And how do you create those goals and landmarks that you then try to achieve?

Debbie: I think my boss called it a startup, actually, but I should say too. Yes. 2020 was a turning point, but it was also- At that point perception in the industry changed about DEI. The perception changed from DEI is nice to have it stuck over on HR to doing nothing about DEI could be the biggest risk to your business of anything. And so It was a catalyst, it was a moment of change. But I think the change has really come because this research has been out here forever and ever, about the impact of diversity on driving higher performance, creating more growth, attracting the best talent, and retaining the best talent. The research has been here, it just wasn’t being incorporated into business strategy. So I think that like for us, and I see that for other organizations that are taking this seriously, you are actually making the DEI strategy at the center of your business strategy, not off to the side. So in other words, we will fail in my organization, if everybody looks, and says, “Oh yeah, Debbie does DEI.” No. What we talk about is embedding DEI into the D N A of the organization. And that’s much, much different. The first thing you do in- Because you’re really moving people, you’re really influencing people, because DEI is all about how you think, how you act, how you behave, and how you make decisions. So the thing about DEI is you really have to influence. You have to create influence. And one of the most important things to begin with when you’re going down this path of making this a priority is you really have to understand ‘what is your organization, and why?’ Why are we doing this? If people view it as just like, “Ah, it’s another thing. It’ll be changed to another, it’ll be different in six months.” And that’s where you have to get into the business case. I really firmly believe that, yes, DEI is the right thing to do. There is a moral case to be made for it, but businesses really have to approach this from a business perspective. Why are we doing this from a business perspective?

John: So Corie Barry comes on our show being now the CEO of Best Buy. And she took over from a very great leader [Inaudible], also a very modern, progressive human being who’s now teaching at Harvard. But when Corie came on, we were talking about DEI and she took the mantle where Uber left off and he already had moved the needle tremendously at Best Buy. But she said, “John, for the most part, much better decisions are made with diverse organizations when Diversity and Inclusion and Equity are.” So we were talking about more specifically her board of directors at that point and how diverse, they were in every way, shape, or form. But let’s talk about your industry as a whole. Larry Fink, about 18 months ago, famously came out, as a leader, but BlackRock, the biggest investment organization on the planet, arguably. And he basically starts talking about besides DEI this other acronym that’s become now a very hot topic in some instances somewhat contested, but for the most part wily accepted now, ESG. Where does DEI in ESG fall in line in your thinking, in your organization’s thinking, Debbie? In that Larry Fink came out and said, “All of our portfolio companies of BlackRock now are going to have to get on the ESG train and prove up their ESG successes and accomplishments and progress, and if they don’t, they will no longer be a portfolio company a BlackRock. Now, once BlackRock says something like that, and Larry Fink says something like that, the financial institutions listen and they follow. He literally moves mountains in that industry, which is your industry. Therefore how does ESG play into, and the great trend and the winds at the back of ESG, is that wind at the back of what you are doing at CAIA with regards to DEI?

Debbie: Oh, absolutely. Yeah, for sure. Now, I am not an expert on ESG, but certainly, DEI is absolutely part of that. What I’m seeing is I’m part of this group called institutional allocators for DEI. So these institutional allocators are people who sit in foundations and endowments. These are people who are managing billions of dollars. And we meet quarterly and this group, I’m a different kind of organization. But what they’re doing is really looking at diverse managers and how can they access more diverse managers. And they also said, a hundred percent of proposals now include DEI metrics. So you are seeing a lot of the push, the change is coming from places. NASDAQ requires now they will not list a new company unless it has you a diverse board. So you are seeing those kind of changes. ESG though is huge. I think if you look at it, there’s a lot of thought too now that the term ESG, like what does it mean because there’s so much folded under there. But this is absolutely part of that discussion.

John: Which I have to believe that trend of ESG in financial institutions and corporate America and worldwide corporations has to be good windy, you’re back as well.

Debbie: Well, it is. The data, if you just look at the data, like the demo, they’re demographic wins here. This is a huge part of the story. According to the US Census, by the year 2045, the white population will be minority. But if you look at this 17 to 27 age bracket, that shift is going to happen in 2027. And when you look at Gen Z, because I have several. Gen Z, and millennials, there is an expectation that companies it represent values that they want to see. So if you’re competing, there’s a war for talent. And if you want to track this young talent, they’re growing up, this generation is more diverse than we’ve ever seen. And so the companies and the consumer products’ consumer side is way further along in the DEI work than our side. But we can learn a lot from how a lot of the consumer side has embraced DEI. And I see a lot of change in our industry in the last two years, my title didn’t exist. I don’t think it did, five years ago. But now you’d be hard-pressed to find a major player in our industry that does not have a Chief Diversity Officer. And typically the Chief Diversity Officer is not reporting necessarily to HR but is reporting to the CEO, which is significant.

John: Very significant. So let’s go back and talk about your journey. So now you’re two years into this or more, 30 months.

Debbie: Oh, yeah. I’m actually just one year into it. There’s still a startup.

John: Okay, fair enough. So where do you want to go? Since [crosstalk]

Debbie: How do you do it?

John: Yeah. Right. Because there’s been no path and that’s the cool part sometimes, and it’s also the curse and the blessing of a startup. So where do you go? How do you drive success and change and what does that look like to you?

Debbie: The blueprint? Yeah. Well, so in year one, what I have been focused on is there’s an external piece and then there’s an internal. Because we want to amplify our voice and our influence to drive change, to amplify the good work that’s happening, but also shine a light on what DEI is, what the business case for it is. And so a lot of what I do is external work in that area where I’m connecting with other DEI champions in the industry, finding out what works where we can partner to design programs to bring more diversity into some of these roles. So that’s one area, and that’s really important because it’s using. When I think about what can CAIA do that no other organization can do, that’s what I want to do. I don’t want to do all the same things that an organization that’s much better at us. We’re not doing mentoring, they’re mentoring programs that do that great. We were not collecting any data on DEI, I know DEI data, and how do you know what your DEI problems are If you don’t have data? How do you know what your gaps are? How do you even know what the strategies are that you should- And from that, I mean, understanding who our members are. We call them candidates if you’re moving through our program, and sometimes it takes years to pass the different levels. Understanding who our members are and our candidates, which is a complicated question on a global level for one thing, because we see diversity through a North America lens, which is very much what you see. It’s through a lens of race and ethnicity. But if we’re talking about diversity in other parts of the world, it makes no sense because, and it’s illegal in some countries to ask about what’s your ethnicity. And people identify themselves completely differently, so that’s a complicating thing. We do know that gender is a big diversifier everywhere. Women are underrepresented in every single corner of the world in our industry. So data collection and then leveraging that data to design your programs, to mitigate what you see as the problems is another big area. And then the third area is what I call embedding into the organizational D N A. [crosstalk] I would say kind of the trickiest one for me, because what this is all about is normalizing conversation. And this can be very hard because if you’re in a culture that’s not comfortable with these topics, you really have to create safe space for this conversation. And one of the things that I learned in this awesome class I took, we studied the work actually of Martin Luther King. Martin Luther King was just a master at working and communicating with people who had didn’t believe anything that he was saying, really opposed. If you read his letters from jail, these are letters to people who absolutely were his opponents. And one of the things that you learn in doing this work is you have to create a culture of empathy. You have to be able to understand that someone is bringing a different experience to the table that’s very different from yours. So when you’re thinking about creating a safe space for conversation, that’s all about creating an environment can be open and honest, and that everybody’s bringing this intention to be empathetic. And also this idea of equanimity, which was sort of a new term to me. It’s all about being calm and being emotionally unaffected in these conversations, being present. And in order to be present in conversations about DEI, sometimes that’s really hard. Over the past year, we introduced an employee resource group, which is this very intentional opportunity for come in and learn and talk. And it’s had some really amazing benefits. I think it’s built trust, people have built relationships because you see, you humanize, it’s so easy to dehumanize people. But when you can create opportunities for conversation, I call it DEI conversation. We have brought DEI conversation into our office. I think that’s been really good. We did not have a DEI policy. How do you know- And DEI policy goes back to that, what do we believe a set of beliefs, it’s principles, and from that, that drives the behaviors that you want to see.

John: You can’t get from point A to point B if you don’t have a roadmap. And without policy these [crosstalk]

Debbie: Right. Exactly. We just finished our first internal DEI survey to understand what the health of the organization is, do people feel, seen, heard, understood. And that was really, really helpful. What are our strengths? What are our weaknesses? You have to do these things.

John: I’m glad you brought up Dr. Martin Luther King. His words are over our front door at our facilities here in Fresno. And his words are that we have on the walls, literally over the front doors. Everyone could be great because everyone can serve. And he’s been a hero of mine throughout my life. His son was on our show, actually.

Debbie: And I think I saw that.

John: It was really fun to have him on, and it was an honor. And I still can’t believe now that I’m 60, that he did all that he did. And at a mere 39, he was taken from us. So it’s just amazing. Talk a little bit about self-reflection, though. It’s hard to be self-reflective. I assume there’s been some resistance in your industry as a whole. And at CAIA as an association, where have you met? Change is difficult. Change is difficult. And you’ve volunteered or tasked with being the change maker with this new startup division. Where is there burden resistance? And where have you had to really push through and where there’s been friction or sticking points?

Debbie: One of the things that I learned in doing this work… Well, two things. One, you got to meet people where they are.

John: Yeah. You’re right.

Debbie: Okay. So number one, you got to meet people where you are. And number two, you have to have a lot of resiliency because your work is never done.

John: It’s true.

Debbie: I would say my organization is very receptive to the DEI as a value and a priority. I would say a lot of people don’t know what to do. And so, a lot of times I think about that. I think If you go into this work or a conversation with the belief that people have good intentions- But maybe, bias is just like a huge problem. When you’re trying to move to an organization to a more inclusive leadership model, a big part of that is educating people on their implicit bias. Explicit would just be like, you’re totally saying things that are just like, “What?” Implicit is just what we do, what we’re drawn to, we’re drawn to people similar to ourselves. And so when people are made aware of that that in itself can change behavior. But you’re 100% right. Humans hate to change. And I think you have to give people. I do think like this building of relationships and having people see the human behind the person. And the other thing too here is that I like to say that you understand inclusion when you remember what exclusion feels like. And I don’t know very many people who have never in their life felt excluded. It doesn’t feel good. Or maybe they’re children, or maybe they’re whatever. Everybody has had that. I really haven’t hit a lot of resistance. I would say people don’t really- We’re early on in this, but they don’t necessarily know what to do. People want to be more engaged than others. And I will say you have to engage the majority groups, but too often you see all the women showing up. All of underrepresented groups showing up. I was at a conference a couple of weeks ago in New York, and I saw my first, it was so awesome. It was a panel of men talking about DEI, and they were all in venture capital and private equity, which is the least diverse of all our. So it was awesome. And they were all so authentic. You do hit people who are just going to be like, “This is dumb.” Yeah. I just don’t really give ’em a lot of oxygen. Am I afraid? Because there’s too much other work we have to do.

John: Exactly. Now you’re in, is this the top of the first ending? And when you lay down at night and you’re thinking about what you’ve accomplished so far and what’s left to be accomplished, do you see a long path ahead here? And do you see a clear path, or do you realize there’s still a bunch of challenges along the way? How’s your approach now, a year or so in?

Debbie: I feel really proud of what we’ve gotten done in the first year. I would say a year ago when I was- I had to fill this class. I had to take exams every week. I had to write papers every week. So every Sunday night, I’d say to my husband, ” You got to proofread my paper.” And he’s an engineer, and he’d look at it and be like, “There are too many words. I can’t read this whole thing.”

Debbie: So a year ago I was just like, “What the heck? What do we do? How do how do you begin?” And I have a really clear picture now of what our strategy is. We’re starting to create some really- We’re doing an effort with the Milken Institute on reaching out to HBCUs and really having exposing these young brilliant, awesome students to an area that they completely don’t know is out there. We need to flood the pipeline with diverse talent, but the diverse talent needs to know that these are awesome careers. You don’t have to be. I had a bit of an analogy to calculus, so I am an example of- And this is why my friend thought I would never be in finances. But there are so many cool directions you can go in these industries that people don’t have exposure. And the exposure piece is a huge missing link. We are doing a lot there to really acts or we want to be doing, we’re starting and we’re getting some, starting to get some really good traction there too. Well, I feel inspired. I don’t let the haters.

John: For listeners-

John: That’s good. That’s a great leadership startup mentality because there’s always going to be haters and there’s always going to be naysayers.

Debbie: I will say one thing is I do try to have a conversation with people because I do feel a number-1 email is terrible form of communication where nuance and delicate topics, I avoid it the plague, but I will pick up the phone and typically, we have way more common ground than not. And usually, we can figure it out.

John: What can we solve with a good conversation?

Debbie: There are a few, but again, we’ll just-

John: We’re not going to worry about the [crosstalk]

Debbie: We don’t worry about them.

John: There’s a lot of young people, Debbie, that are watching this show. We’re listening to it. And some in your industry and some not. Those who want to be part of the change though the solution, not the problem. But those who want to help effectuate good DEI behavior, wherever they sit, like you said, let’s meet ’em wherever they sit. What’s the first step should they be doing at their own organization or to help effectuate that kind of change? What kind of advice can you share with them to help really from the ground up, make this world a more diverse and inclusive and equitable place?

Debbie: Well, it depends, if you’re at a big company, most companies have affinity groups and ways to engage. If you’re from a majority group, boy can you be helpful in being an ally and being a champion. I just heard this woman speak who was amazing. She’s a professor up at Dartmouth in their Tuck business school. And they devised a way that if she says something that is kind of offensive, there’s a signal that she gets just a signal where she can say, |”oh, you know what, let me apologize.” It’s really hard for people who are experiencing the microaggressions or experiencing the bias to always be the ones to try to call it out. We need allies. We need sponsors. And if you are in a leadership role, boy, you can activate your power to really help in that way [Inaudible] And the other thing I would say is that a really important step is really understanding your own biases. Because we all have them. And there’s a great website that has a free test. It’s called the project Implicit, it’s out of Harvard, it’s free. It takes about 15 minutes. And they walk you through this assessment and you can assess anything. You could say, ‘do I have a bias against tall people? Or whatever.’ And it comes out and it tells you where your biases are. And I think that’s really helpful because when you truly believe that you are bringing bias to the conversation, because we all do. And develop the empathy for people understand like have conversations with people. There’s so much you can do to be part of the solution.

John: If you were informed so many ways along your life, both from your high school days and the diversity that existed at your high school, your Peter Jenning days at World News tonight, and what you’re doing at CAIA? Where do you draw strength, and when you look back and you realize, how did I get here? And what was or is the biggest influence on my life, what would you say has been the biggest influence on you?

Debbie: Wow. The biggest influence on me?

John: It could be a who, or it could be just the general situation you were put in.

Debbie: Well, if I was going to say who, I have recently realized in my life how much influence my father had in me. And I’ll tell you why, because so he was a really humble guy, really super humble. He was a phenomenal baseball player. He was recruited for major leagues, all American in college. But he had a dream of being a doctor. It was his calling. His father was a country doctor and would take him on calls to go see car crashes. And he was just fascinated by it. And he had this dream of healing people, but his dream almost didn’t happen because in 6th grade, he finished 6th grade and his parents realized he couldn’t read. He had memorized words. He could not read. They sent him, they had him assessed. They went down in New York City, found out as someone to assess him, and he had dyslexia. He couldn’t read. So he ended up, they bribed him with a new baseball match to go to summer school. He went to Amherst College, which was really his brother was there and he was this great athlete. He’s very much a C student, really struggled, like barely got through French. Went to University of North Carolina and became top 10% in his class. Went on to publish studies, and some of the world’s best journals was the chair of the neurology department at the university. But he was always so humble, and I really feel like he was super empathetic, super compassionate. And I think his struggle, he never felt he was smart. Because when you don’t read until like… I don’t know what, 11 or 12 or 13, he never considered himself smart. But I think that that empathy and that compassion for other people just made him a better doctor, a better husband, a better father, and empathy and compassion is just so necessary for doing this work. And so it’s interesting because the dots… sometimes you don’t connect the dots and they come to you. I feel a lot of gratitude for having been given that example of how you really can overcome struggle, and how doing that can sometimes really give you so much empathy and compassion. Because when you are empathetic, it allows people to be vulnerable. And you need people to be vulnerable if you’re going to make progress on DEI.

John: Is he still with us, your father?

Debbie: He passed away this summer, so I’ve had a lot of time to reflect.

John: Sorry.

Debbie: Thank you. Thank you.

John: Did he become a neurologist? Was that his type of medicine?

Debbie: Yeah, he was a neurologist.

John: Wow! How old was he when he asked?

Debbie: 87.

John: Wow. So he had a good run though. [crosstalk]

Debbie: He sure did.

John: He had a good run. And and quite a decision he made with you and your sisters to say you’re going to go to this high school instead of some other school.

Debbie: Yeah. And you know what? We don’t ever regret it.

John: It’s great thing. That’s a great thing. It’s great to leadership by your pops and great fatherhood by your pops. I’ll tell you that a lot of other people would’ve said, “No, you’re going to go to some other fancy, and I’ll write a check and you go from there.”

Debbie, this has been wonderful, and this is just the beginning of a conversation that I hope we can continue as you continue your journey at CAIA and we continue our discussion with CAIA and in society in terms of making us a more diverse and equitable, and inclusive world. It’s really important.

And for our listeners and viewers to find you and all the great and important work you’re doing and the impact that you’re making at CAIA, please go to www.caia.org. Debbie McLean, it’s been an absolute pleasure and enjoy having you today. Thanks for all the impacts that you’re making, positive impacts in the United States and around the world, and thanks for joining us today on The Impact Podcast.

Debbie: Thank you, John. It was a pleasure.

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