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John Shegerian: This edition of the Impact Podcast is brought to you by ERI. ERI has a mission to protect people, the planet, and your privacy. It is the largest fully-integrated IT and electronics asset disposition provider, and cybersecurity-focused hardware destruction company in the United States, and maybe even the world. For more information on how ERI can help your business properly dispose of outdated electronic hardware devices, please visit eridirect.com.

John: Welcome to another edition of the Impact Podcast. I am so honored and privileged to have my great friend with us today, Erik Grigoryan. Erik is the founder and CEO of Environment Group. He is the former Minister of Environment of Armenia, and the Chair of the Interstate Ecological Council of CIS. He is a national designated authority of Green Climate Fund, Adaptation Fund, Political and Operational Focal Point of Global Environmental Facility, and Climate Convention of Armenia. Welcome to Impact Podcast, Erik Grigoryan.

Erik Grigoryan: Hi, John. Thank you very much for inviting me for this interesting podcast. I am happy to talk with you.

John: Well, let me just share with our listeners, and give them a little bit of a background. First, let me just say hello to all of our wonderful listeners around the world, but especially this interview is happening from Fresno, California, which is considered little Armenia in the United States. And of course, you are sitting in Yerevan, Armenia, so, barev hayastan to all of our great brothers and sisters around the world that are listening. It is just an honor to have you on [inaudible].

John: Just for our listeners to understand, Erik, first and foremost, is a great friend of mine. Second of all, he is exactly the reason why we created the show, the Impact Podcast, because Erik inspires me, and inspires thousands of others on the impacts that he has made in his journey. It is just an honor to have you on today, and share a little bit about your journey, what you did leading up to becoming the Minister of the Environment in Armenia, and then the accomplishments you, and the great Ministers and leadership in Armenia accomplished the last two years for the environment. And then, we are going to go into the future, and talk a little bit about your new company, and what you intend to achieve, and your vision for your new company.

John: So, Erik, before we get going here, and talking about all the amazing accomplishments that you have left in the last two years, and the impact you made in Armenia, that is going to last hundreds of years into the future because of your great leadership. Can you share with our listeners your journey, where you grew up, where you got educated, and your journey leading up to being named the Minister of the Environment of Armenia?

Erik: Thank you. First of all, I am also very happy that it started from Fresno, because Fresno is a very unique place for all of Armenia’s at least [inaudible] because of William Saroyan, my favorite writer. I am so happy because of that topic.

Erik: For my journey, I was born in Kapan. It is a small city South in Armenia. I studied in Armenia. I started in Armenia. So, first thing, some environment economy exile, I did my first education in Yerevan, then I continued in Greece. I studied environment management in Greece in Aegean University. Then I continued in Dresden Technical University in Germany. After I continued also again in Greece, did some PhD on environment economics. So, this is generally about my education.

Erik: And working, I started like twenty years ago again, in Minister of Environment. I started with my internship in Ministry, then get different jobs in Leading Specialist, Senior Specialist, Head of Division of International Corporation. After I left Ministry for a few years, worked for different international organizations like USAID, The World Bank, or UNDP, and other institutions. But after few years, I returned back to government as advisor of Prime Minister, And then, I become a first deputy minister for a year, and for last two years I served as a Minister of Environment.

Erik: To be honest, this political position actually is really a privilege for every citizen to be able to contribute for the well-being of citizens, so I am happy that I took this position, and happy what we achieved, and it was really very, very interesting and busy time, it was a very busy time to work.

John: Well, listen, I have in my hand, and I have read what you accomplished, why you were their Minister of Environment, with of course, first of all, your great team, many of whom I met and they are just both wonderful people, and also very [inaudible] to your inspiration and leadership, but then also your colleagues, the other ministers, and of course the Prime Minister. So I know nothing gets done alone, and it is a team effort, but I read what you accomplished the first two years there, and it was a hundred eleven points.

John: Like I told you off the air for our listeners, Erik and I can spend five hours together, it feels like five minutes. And I am never bored, I am always learning. But I would like for you today, I would like to go over some of the highlights of the a hundred eleven points of accomplishments for the environment that you did, and you did with the team, and leadership from Armenia during your ten years.

John: So let us just start with something really, really near and dear to so many people’s hearts, the issue of trees and forest management. Can you share a little bit about the background of historical forest management in Armenia, which you have shared with me before, which is absolutely fascinating. And what you, and the Prime Minister, and your colleagues achieved during your leadership period, the last two years in forest management?

Erik: For the last twenty to twenty five years, it was a very hard time for a forest management in Armenia, because starting from 90s, that was a some kind of energetic crisis. It was a lot of illegal cutting in the beginning, but it was a primary like a cutting of trees. But as in many countries, after this changing of societies or management, there are some groups are creating some rules. They were trying to take all these businesses, illegal businesses, with illegal logging, and timber production, and others.

Erik: And it was more than twenty five years. It was a lot of illegal cutting in Armenia, and at the same time, almost not any reforestation a part. So what we did actually, we started with legal acts, we changed a lot. It was a lot of changes, criminal law and other different legal acts, we changed the institutional structures, and we involved different state statures, like a police, environment inspectorate. And we started to fight actually, but it took more than one year. But in the end, I can assure that more than 90% decrease of illegal logging was in Armenia.

Erik: And in this moment, there was just few cases, more than 90% if not more. It was an achievement because of work of team, it’s Armforest, with the State Inspectorate, it was police, it was our local authorities or whatever. It was a lot of protests by a local people, who were involved in this business, but results that we have today, is really very good.

Erik: At the same time, we started another also activities to start the reforestation efforts. In 2019, it was the first year that government allocated more than $1 million, and we were able to plant half million trees to involve the local people. And the same people, they were involved in this illegal logging processes. They become a worker to workers to start the reforestation, but it was just beginning because we have a very ambitious plans to double forest covering Armenia. It was like more than 300,000 hectares.

Erik: If we will start this process, it has already started, this year also the government allocated 1 million, next year will be 2 million. We believed that in the next month, one of our international donor institutions will approve about $20 million grants again to reforestation, so it will be a very unique chance to combine the social economic and environment aspects, and we will be able actually to hire a lot of people for the seasonal works, and thousands of local people will be involved in this reforestation process.

Erik: This process had just started. I believe that the future steps and future activities will be broader and broader, and the forest sector will become some kind of locomotive for not only for environmental activities, but also to support local, social, and economic aspects.

John: Wow. Can you just share from your perspective, because you explained it to me when you were touring me through Armenia and showing me so many fascinating aspects of not only our great homeland, and as the core city, but then of course, the beautiful environmental elements of Armenia, why trees, and trees in particular are so important to a society? Any society, but of course, Armenia which had been deforested, why is the reforestation, and new trees, and taking care of trees so important to the sustainability of the future of all of the planet that we live in?

Erik: It is trees and the forest essentially just a very, I would say, amazing place to work, amazing place to assure our better climate, it is a supporting land, it is supporting water, it is supporting societies. It has so many aspects that you can consider. Also, to the forest itself is a place for a biodiversity.

Erik: I would like to mention that Armenia is one of the forty biodiversity hot spots globally. So there are everyone, probably in the US, a lot of people hear about the Madagascar or Amazon is very, very well known places. But in Europe, also there are two regions, it is Northern Mediterranean and Caucasian region. It is a biodiversity hot spots and it is a very unique biodiversity.

Erik: For example, we have a leopard. It is the last leopard actually in European continent, it is Caucasian leopard and we have leopards living in nature, and one of leopards now living just seventy kilometres from the capital Yerevan. So once you are protecting forest, it is also the home of the many biodiversity species. But also again, it is not only the environment aspect, but it is also the climate, the social, it is economic, and we are rehabilitating the forest areas. We are not creating the new forest there, but it was a forest area previously, but it was heavily impacted by different illegal actions or other actions.

Erik: Now they are returning back to nature what we took previously, because in the beginning of 90s, there was no any gas, electricity, so it was an energetic crisis and forest was used by all people as firewood for heating, and others. Now it is time to return back what we took, and all these actions that we are now starting to do, it is to return back. Plus, if you have forest, it means you have a better climate, you have a better water balance. It is really very amazing.

Erik: Even after this COVID actually, when Armenian government started some economic supporting programs, one of these programs was the planting of trees. And during the ten to fifteen days, we were able to plant two million trees, and to hire more than one thousand local people. We are from one side, we were able to take people who were affected because of COVID that the other unemployment activities come from other sides, but they did the planting of seeds will bring some better environmental effects in future.

John: Perfect. That is just so amazing. I know because of you, and the Prime Minister’s vision, when I was there in Armenia last October, you even announced the new initiative and you gave out a bunch of little baby trees to the entire audience that day. So that was so meaningful, and it felt so good. I am just so excited for the future of Armenia with more and new trees coming in the reforestation. I think it just means we have a more sustainable, and brighter, and cleaner future in Armenia ahead of us.

John: Let us talk about something that is a big issue around the world, a big issue in the United States, and a big issue in California, but also you put it on the agenda in Armenia. The issue of reusable plastic bags or reusable bags versus plastic bags, and how do we get plastic bags out of the ecosystem? What action did you take on the issue of plastic bags in Armenia?

Erik: We just banned the use of single use plastic. It will start from 2022, so from January 2022, it will be banned. So sale and realization of plastic sets and bags with up to fifty microns will be just banned in Armenia. So, no one can sell it. Why we give also the time also for the business to somehow change their activities, to start the production of biodegradable bags, or to switch to paper, or other. But my strength believe that within five to ten years, maybe it is even earlier, it will be banned globally, because you are using usually up to fifteen minutes while single use plastic bag, and then it will remain in nature for five hundred years. So it is fairly sustainable way of use this for plastic bags.

Erik: Not only a banned in Armenia, but we also send the letter to our colleagues in the former Soviet Union countries, to Eurasian union, to promote also the activities in their regions. But yes, it was banned in Armenia. It went through the government decree, it went to Parliament, and everyone was voted on banning. This was one hundred fifteen to zero voting to ban the plastic bags in Armenia.

Erik: But it was the only the first step because now we started new process, that was a deposit-refund system for plastic bags. So this system will give a possibility to reuse plastic bags up to 99% is working in many European countries like in Germany, or in Estonia, and other countries. So you are paying some small amount for your bottle when you are buying something, and then you just returning and getting back your money. It is giving chance to collect these bottles and to reuse it again.

John: Wonderful. Again, you put Armenia, you took us again, like many societies needed to make that important change. You took us from the back of the pack and you put us right on the forefront of how plastic bags should be treated and kept out of the ecosystem to keep a cleaner environment for all of our sake. Not only our sake in our generation, but also of course, our children and grandchildren’s generations as well.

John: For our listeners who just joined us, we have Erik Grigoryan today. He is a great friend, he is huge environmentalist, and leader, he is the owner of the Environment Group. To find Erik, you could find him at www.environment.am, www.environment.am. Erik, where else can they find you on Facebook and LinkedIn as well?

Erik: Yes. Through LinkedIn, it is Erik Grigoryan. It is easy to find and also on Facebook page.

John: Perfect. I am on your beautiful website now. It is a gorgeous website full of lots of resources, and all of your colleagues that you have at the environment group with you. I really highly recommend anybody who is interested in making the world a better place, both from an environmental standpoint, and a sustainability standpoint, to contact Erik. He is not only brilliant, but he is also really wonderful to work with.

John: Erik, let us talk a little bit about water management and the beautiful, the beautiful and iconic, Lake Sevan in Armenia. Lake Sevan and water management issues are on your point of a hundred and eleven issues that you tackled the first two years as the Minister of the Environment. Can you share a little bit about some of the wins that you got in water management and with Lake Sevan?

Erik: Yes. It was also some cumulative, like a negative situation with the Lake Sevan, and also the rivers, and underground water resources used by different users. For decades, it was a lot of pollution to Lake Sevan, and it was worsening the quality of Lake Sevan, the biggest water drinking water reservoir in Caucasians region.

Erik: We started a lot of activities. We started intensive cleaning of coastal zones from this organic materials that polluting. Also, we started the process to remove the buildings that were in the area and even in the water, we negotiated with the international donor organization. So, EU allocated €5 million to start the wastewater treatment activities, and to start different other activities to support quality of water, we negotiated with Germany institutions to bring some more knowledge working with Armenian Academia Science and the monetaring institution to see what we can do, because like ten to fifteen years ago, it was another scientific improvement that we need to increase level of Lake Sevan to keep the water ecosystem in balance. But because of climate change because of intensive pollution coming from communities.

Erik: Now, we need to act more actively, more intensively. So all this work was taken and a huge road-map was prepared, and it was presented to all the donor institutions like the UNDP, the World Bank, ADB, EBRD, all institutions that are working in Armenia. I believe that the process that we started for rehabilitation to support the quality of Lake Sevan will go and we will have a better situation than we have now.

Erik: Another problem was related to a small hydropower plant because it was a time that a lot of hydropower plant was built without considering environmental standards and environmental requirements. So we have developed a lot of legal acts, the minimum ecological flow, the water meters, what kind of measurement should be done? The penalties that were changed because previously, it was even, without almost any penalty to use more water resources, and it was making the conflict between traditional water users for agriculture in turn. So a lot of changes in the management of hydropower plants and third biggest part were with underground, artesian groundwater, because of the fish ponds, taking a lot of groundwater, a lot, more than it was even possible to regenerate.

Erik: So we did a lot of changes also in legal acts and we started to close abounded ponds only in 2019. Because of these activities, we were able to save one hundred million cubic meters of groundwater, it is drinking water. So it is more than all of Yerevan is using and it was just starting actually. I believe that the action that is how also, you know, it will give a chance to rehabilitate all these areas and have better water management because in Armenia, we have a lot of water resources like four times more than we used. But because of water resource management, we had the problem with irrigation in some areas or using it for other purposes. So once we will be able to conduct all these activities to assure that all our citizens will get access to water resources.

John: That is wonderful. One of the things you just mentioned during that narrative with regards to the important work and accomplishments that you made, with regards to water management like Sevan, and the future of Armenia, you talked a little bit about relying on German engineering. One of your strong suits I have learned, and you have shared stories with me is that you have a unique ability to reach out to other experts, subject matter experts, and leaders around the world, can you share a little bit about during your tenure and before, where you have built bridges that have been beneficial to Armenia, other countries and their leadership, and how you have sought experts in different subject matters in different parts of the world, which will benefit Armenia now, and for years, decades to come?

Erik: Oh, you know, John, in the environment, we do not have any borders. So everyone is in one boat. So you need to cooperate with your neighbor, within society, with everyone. Because even if you will do everything, you know, let us take the plastic, even if you will do everything good in Germany or in Norway and other, there is huge plastic pollution coming for example from India. It will go to the fish as a microplastic and eating your fish in Germany will harm you. The same with climate change I mean, even if you have a good standard in your country, climate change will hit everyone in every country, so you should cooperate. We are very active in working in international institutions. Within two years, Armenia became a member of the nine highest decision making bodies in international environmental conventions, and the first time Armenia became a member of the Green Climate Fund Council, it is a fund that should allocate one hundred billion dollars to fight climate change. It was really very good cooperation in working with different institutions, working with different countries. We were able to sign an MOU with China, the Emirates, with Austria, with other institutions.

Erik: So we work very hard for it because I mean, you are not an island if you are working in the environment., you should cooperate. Knowledge and experience are very important to what they can bring because you do not need to know to find the new solutions if it was already found in like in France or in other places. But at the same time, we were able to develop innovative climate finance mechanism. It was a very interesting method that was combining the country’s external data and commitments under the Paris Agreement. The idea that many developing countries that have a foreign debt and you know, it is difficult to serve it, but at the same time, a developed country has an obligation to support climate change activities of developing countries. So we developed a tool that combining all this, you know, that from one side the obligations of developed countries from the other side activities that should be taken in developing countries. We started with France, Germany, Japan, the US, and Russia, Armenia, but it is not a local tool. So I believe it will work with us and our neighbors. It may be replicated in other countries and after COVID, this will become more important, this tool, I mean. It will be a very useful tool to use because a money to be spend for climate adaptation and mitigation are needed to be available now. It will give a chance to developing countries to have this money and to stand for these climate activities.

John: Yes, but you say it so wisely. But many, many people when they lead, they are an island. They make themselves an island. You were different, just like you laid out, you led with an open mind of there are no borders. You relied on experts from already developed countries to bring the best technologies to Armenia. That is why we benefited, and that is why you had such a productive two years there. So that is to your credit, that is the culture you created. Many leaders, whether it is in business, whether it is in government, make themselves an island, and do not do what you did. But you reached out and that is fascinating, and also it shows you that paradigm really yields higher and better and faster results. That is to your credit, I will tell you that Erik, that is super impressive.

John: Let us talk a little bit about a fun topic. You know, Mr. Elon Musk gets lots of publicity, and the beautiful vehicles he has created and brought to the world, and Tesla is booming in terms of sales in terms of making the world a cleaner place and getting us moved around. Talk a little bit about your production and your impact on what you did with your team with regards to electric vehicles in Armenia to clean up the air and to clean up the environment, and make Armenia both a place that it is easy to get around, but also a place that has clean air and a wonderful environment to enjoy?

Erik: First of all, I just want to say that I am a big fan of electric cars. I believe that again, there will be a time that all cars will become electric. I remember once I was in San Francisco meeting with my friend in the area, everyone was riding in a Tesla or other electric cars. It came with the luxury sport Audi car, the quattro with everything. I ask him, you know, everyone is riding electric cars here, why do you don’t have this big engine car? He said, “You know, I think it is the last five years that people have this car. So I want to enjoy this car because all cars can become electric.” So what we did in Armenia actually be exempt from value-added tax, and it became very cheap to import car. The result was really amazing because it was only like in 2018, it was only one electric car imported in Armenia, it is like second half of 2018. In the 2019 second half, it was like around one hundred fifty. It is also one electric motorcycle and it was zero before and it became like five hundred.

Erik: Now, we have official dealers that are selling only electric cars. So it is booming here. I believe it is booming globally. But electric cars are not only interesting because of clean air, but it is also supporting the science we have these Polytechnic Universities. We have the IT sector growing very fast. Since last like ten years, was a time for example, for smartphones, I believe that this decade will be more, the innovation in electric cars in this sector. So once we have service, we have cars, it is also supporting science, I believe. It is also good for electric production because in many countries we have a problem with the usage in day and night time. So it is good as balancing also your electric bills. So many aspects why the electric car is good, but my impression that within a few years, the production of electric cars will be so easy that it will be organized in many, many small countries. I believe that Armenia will become a country that will start to produce electric cars and even export to the neighboring countries.

John: How many years off are we from Armenia producing their own electric cars? Do you have knowledge or some vision for that, Erik?

Erik: Taking into account how fast this sector is growing, and taking into account that the traditional cars have like thirty, forty thousand details and the electric cars just two three thousand, I believe it is very easy to organize and maybe, you know, I am too ambitious, but it may be organized within five years, I believe. I believe.

John: Wow, that is great. Hey, it is good to be ambitious because if you do not set big goals, you do not make big progress. So it is good to be ambitious. Erik, you have talked a little bit about with me this innovative tool of debt-for-nature. Can you explain to our listeners, what debt-for-nature means to you and why it is important?

Erik: Well, the idea is very simple. I mean, this tool was developed in ages like thirty years ago but was used only when the country has problems with solving their foreign debt and some part of the debt, they started to spend in their local environment issues. But it was just giving something for countries that are not able to pay. The tool that we developed is completely different. It is based on both interests, interests of developing countries, and the interests of developed countries. So within the Paris Agreement that was signed a few years ago, with all countries including the US, and then the US decided to, you know, be removed from the agreement. But they are still there. So the countries decided to allocate one hundred billion dollars to developing countries to start mitigation and adaptation of climate change. But the talks, forums and method on is how to do it? How it will work? What kind of method will be developed, it is still not clear.

Erik: So we developed our own platform, it was developed by Armenia with the support of the World Bank. This is one of the platforms so, for example, we need to pay like twenty million dollars to France, for example. We need to pay until 2050. So still thirty years that we need to pay them. At the same time, France took an obligation to pay annually one billion dollars to the developing countries to support climate adaptation and mitigation measures. So this tool just combining these two operations, and we are not paying this twenty million to France, but it will be like swops from the France obligation. These twenty million will go, for example, for reforestation efforts in Armenia.

Erik: Instead of waiting ten years, fifteen years or until they will get their money back and you know, to see how to allocate or, you know, climate adaptation and mitigation, they can act now. So it is very simple and we started with France, with Germany. Also, this tool was presented during the UN General Assembly last year by Prime Minister Nikol Pashinyan. But tomorrow, it may work between Nigeria and Germany, between Egypt and France, and other countries. It is giving the chance to have that money now and to start to act now.

John: Make an impact now, not in the future.

Erik: Yes. Because it is still a lot of talk between developing and the developed country. They are blaming each other. You are, more polluters, you did a lot, whatever. So let us put all these talks to one side and to find a solution that is good for both sides, and to start actions now.

John: That is so important to start actions now. We can not afford to wait, Erik, with regards to the world and where we are now. With regard to the environment, people need wherever they are with whatever resources they have, everyone needs to take action now, way beyond our milieu. This goes for the United States, this goes for every country. Actions are needed now. So that makes such great sense that it gives a mechanism and a tool so people can take action now, and not wait for further degradation of the environment. That is really brilliant. You know, for our listeners out there, we have got Erik Grigoryan with us today. It is really just such a joy to have him with us. He is just so inspirational. Every time I am with him, I learn more. To find Erik and his great work at the Environment Group, you could go to www.environment.am. How simple is that? www.environment.am. Erik, talk a little bit about your vision for the Environment Group, and your work now, and years to come. Running the Environment Group, making the world a better place. Go ahead now.

Erik: So the idea to star to support not only, you know, the public activities, but also the private sectors. Because every year, the environment is becoming more and more important. If in the 70s or the 80s, the private sector was recognized as an enemy of the environment. So everyone is blaming the private sector, saying you are polluting like others. But now, every player see I mean, the government, civil society, academic or private sector, everyone is in the place to work.

Erik: Because like LED lamps, everything was developed by private companies, and now it is giving a chance to significantly reduce CO2 emission. All environmentally friendly technologies are coming from the environment sector. So the idea now to bring the new horizons for the private sector also, environment, social governance, how to be more environmentally friendly. How to work with better energy efficiency, water management, be more climate neutral, and others. So the company, I mean the Environment Group itself is just like an umbrella bringing in experts from all region I mean, we have experts from the US, from Germany, Slovakia, Kazakhstan, Russia, Armenia, Georgia, so many experts from different fields. We will bring our knowledge, our experience to make, you know, at least this time to make the region greener. But whatever we are doing for a better environment,

John: That is wonderful. I just feel the future is so bright with young leaders like you running such an important organization like the Environment Group, I feel that Armenia’s future is so bright, environmentally speaking, after hearing all of the great achievements you and the Prime Minister and your colleagues made the last two years. Now, with your new vision of privatizing your work, and being able to inspire, and to make an impact not only in Armenia but other places that you are hired, I think that is just wonderful and I am so excited for you. I cannot wait to have you back on the Impact Podcast to share all of the achievements you are going to do in the coming months and years ahead, Erik. For our listeners again, to find Erik, go to www.environment.am. Erik Grigoryan, you are not only a great friend, but you are the reason why I created the Impact Podcast because you have made already a huge impact on this planet, and going to continue to make an impact for decades to come. I thank you for your time today, and I just thank you for our friendship. Thanks again for joining us on the Impact Podcast.

Erik: Thank you very much.

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John: Welcome to another edition of the Impact podcast. I am John Shegerian and we are so lucky to have with me today, Sam Geil. He is a longtime friend. He is one of the leaders here in the Central Valley of California. Welcome to Impact, Sam.

Sam: Thank you, John. It is great to be here.

John: You know, Sam, you have done so much in your life and I am, of course, great friends with your son, Patrick, and he has become part of even the Shegarian family over the years and we just adore your family. So, this is a very biased interview, I have to tell my listeners. But regardless of all the bias, there is a reason why you are on Impact today. Because you have truly made an impact in so many ways, way beyond just the environment and sustainability. You have made an impact here in the Central Valley and the community you have lived in and worked in for many, many years. So, I want to share a little bit first on your background. I want you to share with our listeners your biography and your journey before we go into specifics of what you are doing today, day by day.

Sam: Very good John. Well, I am a native Californian born in the Bay Area. Went to high school and college in the Bay Area and married my wife, Donna, when we both attended San Jose State back in the 70s. We have two wonderful children. And as you mentioned and two really wonderful grandchildren now, so we are in that phase of our life now where we have grandkids and it is deja vu, right, all over again. That really is the highlight right there, John. I mean, you know, we could wicked stuff right there, you know what I mean. But after Donna and I got married, we both had careers and I spent the first ten years in the computer business in Silicon Valley.

And then after transferring to Manheim Beach, California, I got an offer and joined Grundfos and in Fresno, California, a Danish manufacturer of water pumps and water systems, and I was there for eighteen years. Did a lot of cool stuff traveling all over the world, opening up companies and just having a heck of a time as a business person. That is pretty much where I cut my teeth. And then in 2004, I left Grundfos and accepted a position in Fresno – because we had moved to Kansas City – in Fresno as the CEO of our family business, my brother’s business, which they started in 1986. [inaudible] Commercial Industrial Services Company. So, I was the CEO and Chairman of the Board there until 2013 and then left to start my own consulting business, Geil Consulting, which is what I do now.

John: And at Geil Consulting and for our listeners out there who would like to connect with Sam and Geil Consultin, you go to www.geilconsulting.com. What exactly is your day-to-day work look like at Geil Consulting.

Sam: Sure. It is really I would say pretty eclectic. Actually the business model I started with is not exactly what I have today, but that is okay. Because what I have learned is the market, you know, seeks kind of its own level and what I started with, John, was focusing on mentoring. You are mentoring younger people if they wanted to sharpen their skills in leadership and management; board governance sitting on the board of companies, mostly small to medium-sized; and then general consultancy. So, because my background is really so broad. You know, I am really a generalist at its purest form. I can work with organizations that need help in any element of the P&L. So, I pretty much span everything from revenue to net income. And what has happened is my reputation is more of a doer, right? That is what people, you know, if they ask you, “You know, what would Sam do?” You know he is a doer.

And so, that is pretty much what ended up being the, you know, value-added proposition in all the cases with my clients, so I sit on for five boards. I mentor about thirty to thirty-five young people and I have one major client, which I want to talk about and that is a major foundation underneath the California Community Foundation under LA. And I was retained to address homelessness in the city of Merced back in 2006. Since then, we have granted close to a little over two million dollars to almost providers in the city of Merced to help them with addressing the homeless crisis there. So, that is probably, of all the things I have ever done as a consultant, that is probably the most impactful and the one that has been the most life-changing for me, because I have had to get on the street. You know, I have had to get into it pretty deep. It is not a research project. This is a direct funding project where the money goes directly to the folks that need it. So, now, we are focused on COVID-19 and doing basically the same work, looking for agencies and organizations to help grant money so that they can do their great work. So, it is a lot of fun.

John: That is really great stuff, you know. Again, a part of our population that gets historically marginalized and growing up in New York City, I used to walk by homeless people everyday, going to high school and then college and Manhattan. And I once heard Dan rather talk about his experience in New York City with homeless people and he said every day he would pass a homeless person which was everyday walking the streets of New York, it is impossible not to wear. Whatever part of the city you are in, he would always say a little prayer to himself and the prayer was simple. It was for the grace of God, and I always remembered what he said and it is really stuck with me the rest of my life with regards to our tragic homeless situation. Throughout the United States, I do not think any community is really immuned from this and it is so wonderful. I did not know that part of your professional and personal life and that is a great and impactful thing that you are doing and I am so happy to hear that.

And it is, again, you know, it continues to polish the Geil branding the Shegarian household. That is for sure, but you are always a rock star in our household nonetheless, but that is really important work. Good for you, good for you. I had no idea. You know, so at Geil Consulting, you have the young people you mentor. You have the homeless issue you are addressing in Merced and then board work that you do. You know, Sam, after we had become friends and after Pat became an adopted part of our family and the two families got to know each other, you had the idea of IGIHOF and I would love for you to share, you know, the genesis of your environmental passion and why you and how you came up with that . But where did that emanate from in your soul and in your persona? How did that even come about?

Sam: Yeah. Well, it started a long time ago, John. It started with my upbringing. We grew up in a small town in the valley of Merced. And my mother raised four children by herself and had to lean heavily into the church for support. So, we all attended very small Catholic School in Merced. And so, we got exposed to the Bible in a very early age and probably, the part that struck me the most was Genesis in the very beginning and if you really read Genesis, a big portion of Genesis is about, you know, God’s wish for a man to really take care of the gift that we receive called this earth, right? And so, as I grew up and went, you know, into Boy Scouts and all that good stuff, one [inaudible] that really stuck with me was you always leave your campsite better than when you got there. Right? And that was really drilled into us. You know, you got there. You unloaded and then before you left, you had to really make sure that campground was in good shape.

So at an early age, those kinds of things were reinforced, you know, as a young person. So as I grew up, I always kind of had an interest in ecology if you want to call it that. So when the 60s and 70s hit, it was a natural thing to get involved in and get interested in so, you know, I paid a lot of attention to what was going on in that arena. Once I hit my professional career, I was, again, exposed to, you know, corporate ecology, if you want to call it that. We did not call it that, but that is really what it was and it really came together when I work for the pump company, Grundfos. Grundfos was a company way before its time when it comes to sustainability and partly because of, you know, the product. Right? The mission which was to provide water to the world. And so I was so fortunate to have worked for a company that allowed me to travel internationally and actually, you know, do some things that really nobody else really would have the opportunity to do it unless you were in that space and time. So, you know, the timing was perfect an, so when, I do not know if you remember, but 1998 there was a hurricane in Central America. The hurricane Mitch, which wiped out thousands of people and, you know, number of bridges and water systems.

And so as part of my responsibility in Central America, I went down and tried to help and establish new water systems for the people down there. And during my visit to Nicaragua, I stayed in Managua, the capital, and the hotel I was in overlooked Lake Managua, Flat Lake Nicaragua. So Lake Nicaragua is the largest freshwater lake in Central America. And then Lake Managua is really another lake kind of attached to it. You know, the one feeds the other. And there were some spectacular native fish in that lake. So when I got to my room on the eighth or ninth floor, I looked out and the lake had the consistency of like a chocolate milkshake. I mean, it was really in bad shape. And so I asked my host at the time, you know, was that the result of Hurricane Mitch and he said no, it is really just pollution. And I should really [inaudible] people actually still, you know, live off that lake and I just could not believe it.

And so without disclosing the company that was the culprit, I asked the guy said, “You know, where is the pollution come from and unfortunately and and totally embarrassed, it was primarily because of a US company dumping their waste into the lake. And that was really, really embarrassing and that was a joke to my system. So putting that one in my little, you know, cabeza, I started to work with our company more aggressively in the area of sustainability, and then I left in 2004 and moved back to Fresno and was, then the CEO of our family business. And that is when you and Kevin and, I believe, Aaron came through and shared your business concept, which was brilliant. And that was the same time I was starting to get into, you know, the whole and it is more serious way now. As CEO, I wanted to green up our business. I wanted that to be my legacy was.

John: I remember that.

Sam: Yeah, the greening of the business. So we ended up taking a very aggressive stance on, you know, our carbon footprint and we actually took a very bold action to eliminate about a million dollars worth of business overnight because I simply refuse to continue to do dirty work and that dirty work was basically cleaning grocery store floors, you know, with scrubbers and strippers and all that and the propane that was, you know, that was the offshoot of the machines that were running. Right? And all that dust and propane ended up in the store,right on your fruit and veggies and all that stuff and I just could not live with that. So overnight, I just pulled our clients. You know, we are out of it. You know, we are not going to do that business anymore. And that was a real interesting decision and a really interesting point in our company because, you know, the employees were like, “Okay. What are we going to do now?” You know and I said, “Do not worry. You know, we are going to find clients that, you know match up to our values and they are out there. We just got to go find them and we were able to do that.

So that whole journey of cleaning up our business forced me to attend a lot of conferences and conventions on the green industry, learning chemistry, you know, and in the building side of things, I got certified Green Build and all that stuff. Because I really wanted to know firsthand, you know, is this real or, you know, is this a game? So I did that and in the process of going to all these conferences, John, I had walk the exhibit floor talking to all these really cool manufacturers and entrepreneurs and people who are converting stuff into you know, recyclable goods and all that kind of good stuff. What I noticed was they had no marketing ability they were they were geeks like me that were really good at, you know, thinking about things, but marketing was not their forte and they did not have the money to market their products. So I thought, I wonder, you know, what would be a good way to help these guys, you know, get some air under their wings, do some marketing for nothing. Basically, for free. And that is where the concept of this Hall of Fame was born.

John: What year did you kick that off? What year was that kickoff?

Sam: Legally, we are in place in 2008. 2010 is when we started the nomination process and inducting people in the Hall of Fame. So we have been doing it since 2010 or 2011.

John: Right. For our listeners though who want to learn more about this great work that you are doing and understand it even deeper, they could go to www.gogreenhall.org. So you launch it in officially like let us just say 2010 where you started taking nominees. And talk about the journey the last ten years.

Sam: Sure. Well, this little thing is a fantastic journey and as you know in your entrepreneurial and you are starting up, you know, a lot of things happen, right? And yet, we prepared for the unexpected, but for the most part it was pretty smooth sailing. Think, it was really interesting when I would go to the urban areas and talk about the concept, people were very excited. Not so much in the rural. The rural areas, you know, “Well, we will see.” You know, they were pretty pessimistic about, you know, anything that had to do with environmental green sustainability, but once we started nominating and inducting,they could see that we were an inside-out organization, right? Not an outside-in. So my mission was to influence the c-suite, the board directors, and say, “Hey, look there is a better way to run your business. I have done it. I can show you how to be more profitable, be cleaner and healthier for your clients and your employees and build a more sustainable organization. And I always thought that model work better than, you know, being on the outside advocating and kind of screaming and yelling at them, right?

To me, this was a business proposition as well as an environmental proposition for sure and the way that I leverage the conversation was with our inductees and showing them what these great organizations have done and that they have a willingness to share their secrets and share their methods and processes on how to become greener or as I say now sustainable. And so, one of the things we did at Geil Enterprise is to be really the sustainability model was employee ownership. So, we sold the company into an ESOP and now, we have, you know, five hundred to six hundred employees. We have the opportunity that they would never have in this industry.You know, they own a piece of the rock and retire with a really strong retirement program. And so that ended up being more my legacy than anything else and that company was, you know, converting it to a hundred percent employee ownership which went flawlessly. So I deviate a little bit but [crosstalk]

John: No, no. That is a good deviation because that is an impact itself because you also show there are different ways to be an entrepreneur and you do not have to own the whole thing yourself. You do not have to, to be a great entrepreneur. So that, itself, is a wonderful lesson for our listeners out there. So that is really a good deviation actually. Thank you. So keep going.

Sam: So anyway, we have been doing this since 2010 or 2011. We have inducted over close to a hundred [inaudible] at organizations and people, including yourself, which we are very proud of. You and Ray C. Anderson were the first, you know, and that is good company, you know, that guy.

John: Oh my God. He is a legend. He came on the podcast in the beginning and leaned in and was excited to come on and I will tell you what, I still remember doing the interview with him and what a gentleman… First of all, what a gentleman and second of all, what a visionary. He was a great guy.

Sam: Actually, we have the last video of Ray C. Anderson before he passed away. So we are very fortunate to have gotten him on video, you know, before his passing. Anyway, so it has been going really well. We have a lot of really cool stories. If I can share one…

John: Please.

Sam: Yeah. There is a winery up in Mendocino called Frey Wineries. And they are the first biodynamic winery in the country, all right? And yeah, they are plugging along and they got nominated and they got inducted and it was not long after their abduction where a big, I will not say who it is, but a big box store called them and said, “hey look will buy everything you got. We are looking for you know, a biodynamic, you know environmental safe and all that good stuff a green company that makes wine and we want to offer that to our clients, you know, to our shoppers.” And so they would have probably had a harder time, you know, breaking into that that market if they had not gotten some exposure through [inaudible]. At least, that is what I am told so we were really proud of that story and I hope people, you know, if you like wines that are healthier to drink, that is what they do. And so that is one story. I mean, we have a number of stories like like that and we have had stories of people who have been inducted who ended up getting bought out. You know, they got their company bought and they made you know, some good coins, you know.

John: Nothing bad with that either by the way. There is nothing shameful about that at all either, right?

Sam: That is right.

John: Let us talk about another great story. Let us talk about what you have coming up. And, again, for our listeners out there who want to connect with Sam and his great company, you could go to www.geilconsuting.com. And if you want to learn more about what is happening with IGIHOF, you can check them out at gogreenhall.org. October 1st, you have a big event coming up. Share with our listeners a little bit of what is happening on October 1st. Why that is so important and things of that such.

Sam: Sure, sure. Well, historically, we have held our events on college campuses and we have decided that we want to have a home and really settle in one location. Because the amount of work and the carbon footprint we leave is really high as we move it around. Okay, and so by having one stationary place, we can lower our carbon footprint and we can build some stability and and also get some financial support, I think, that we would not have been able to get otherwise and that has come to fruition and so we were granted a sizable amount of money from a foundation to do this work. And so, we are very fortunate about that. So, we chose Merced and Merced because of UC Merced and they are our partner now in what we are doing. And that is a wonderful sustainability story. That campus is just about I think entirely silver LEED certified. It may be the greenest campus in the country. Maybe they are or Santa Barbara, but at least in the top two. Okay.

And so, we are really, really happy about that relationship and the plan was to have our event at the school. But what happened was there are two very old hotels in Merced, the El Capitan and the Tioga Hotel, that were purchased and have been renovated. Right? And the ultimate hotel, you know, a sustainability story. Basically, there were just transients living in these hotels and cleaned it up and in re-gentrifying, you know, Downtown Merced, California and our plan was to hold part of it there and at the Merced Theater, which is across the street from one of the hotels. it is the old Spanish theater in town and and that is being renovated into like an activities adult activities center, right, with small theater where you can put on shows and acts and put on concerts and so on and so on.

And so, what we decided to do because of COVID-19 is basically to this point, we have [inaudible] from that and we are going to do a virtual event there and and if things look good and they open up, we will do a combo. You know virtual and stream it live and full. So far, our inductees, our honorees, really, really embrace that approach. Some of them are international, so the travel would have been pretty egregious. I really, really like the fact that they could just dial in like we Are doing [inaudible] with video and we are excited about the change. Actually, we are actually excited about it because it really is a much better green approach than the traditional, where you have people flying in and staying in hotel rooms, and they have to rent a car, costs a lot of money. I think those days are behind us now. Honestly, John, I think more and more organizations are going to go virtual.

John: Well, it also shows why another reason, underlying reason, that makes you such a great and successful entrepreneur at your course and you are flexible. It is not all or nothing in the event, so you know, tragic circumstances beyond any of our controls happen to happen to the world, this COVID-19 situation. And instead of scratching your very important and relevant and impactful event, you found a way to make it happen otherwise. And that, again, is just that flexibility to me is just truly the trademark of people that I have seen become success over and over again and it is just not a luck thing. That flexibility, you know, is a common theme through entrepreneurs that go through life, through surreal success stories and you are one of those really blessed people that just have it. Whatever it is, you have it. And flexibility, again, proves out to be a great, great strength of yours and other entrepreneurs. And I want you to share. There is a lot of young people out there that listen to the show and look up to you, again, for mentorship. Talk a little bit about some of your trademark time hacks and what is your major secret super power that, again, has kept you ahead of now, so many changes that you have seen in society, business and otherwise throughout your life.

Sam: Wow, that is great question and I would say I was fortunate to be raised to work hard. There were certain principles that I was raised with and I call them the non-negotiables, all right? You know, that your parent teaches you or the people that influence your life and one of those was you work hard. Like I said, I was raised by a single mother. We did not have any money, but I always had money. I always had money. I had more money than my buddies. He had two parents. Because I hustle. You know, I [inaudible] and then I learned how to manage money, right? I learned the value of money and that was important. So hard work would be probably, you know, number one. And number two is self-awareness.

John: What do you mean by that?

Sam: Well, self-awareness is understanding who you are, what make me take and understand your limitations, right?

John: Got it. Got it. Your strengths and limitations, your strengths and limitations.

Sam: Oh, yeah, absolutely. And you know, I had some interesting tutoring by my one of my grandmothers who was very, very wise, you know, would say, play on your strengths, play on your strengths, play on your strengths. And, again, you know, I was fortunate to be to be mentored by a very loving and caring godparents and grandparents. So that gave me the passion for mentoring. So I would say, you know, hard work, self-awareness and then, you know give back. You know constantly giving back and some say pay it forward. And no limit to that. You know, it could be whatever. Whatever is the right thing to do and then, you know, over a practical perspective, you know, I learned how to time manage. I learned priority is more important than the calendar.

John: That is great.

Sam: I learned some basic tenants of quality, quality management, you know, getting things right the first time. You know, some of those lessons I learned in business, you know, be patient and be flexible. And I was very fortunate to work for companies that gave me the freedom. Because of my self-awareness, you know, I knew that I had a pretty strong ego. You know, I knew that I have a tendency to be more verbal than listen. I know I have a tendency to have a strong sense of urgency. And you know, my level of detail is not as high maybe as the demands of the job sometimes, but because I had that self-awareness, John, I either surrounded myself with people who had the strengths that I had weakness or displayed all my strengths. And that really, really, really, really paid off. And then I would say, to put a period at this, I was fortunate to work for a company that valued learning and that really was important lesson for me and I have been a life learner ever since that experience. And so…

John: Ongoing learning. You are a constant student.

Sam: That is right. Watching, learning, taking it all in and I would say that would be my story in a nutshell.

John: That is awesome. And Sam, before we have to say goodbye, anything else you want to promote, get out there to our listeners before we sign off for today? Of course, you are always welcome back on this show. This is your home. You have been on before and you have done such great work and you are such an important figure here in the valley. It is an honor for me to always have you on. But can you share anything else that you want to get out there or any shameless plugs for our listeners before we sign off for today?

Sam: No, I do not really have any shameless plug except I would like people to get involved with the green industry. I think that is where the opportunities are for all the young people coming up.

John: Very true, very true.

Sam: Regardless of what you are into: law, medicine. There is a green element to all of it. There is a sustainability element to all that.

John: It is true.

Sam: And so, that is my shameless promotion is to get kids to go towards that type of future as opposed to the traditional lane that kids have been on for years and I think it will pay off in spades form. I think it will really have dividends form in the long run and I wish I could live long enough to see you at all. But that is my shameless promotion.

John: Well, it is a great shameless plunging for… And will give you a shameless plug for any of our listeners out there that want to meet Sam or hire Sam to beyond the board or get involved with their company or mentor them, go to www.geilconsulting.com. And to learn more about Sam’s great upcoming IGIHOF event on October 1st, 2020 in Merced, go to www.gogreenhall.org. Sam Geil, you are a great friend. You are making an impact and making the world a better place. It is an honor to be your friend. It is a pleasure to have you on our show. And thank you for being everything that you are.

Sam: Well, thank you, John and love to you and your family.

John: You are the best. Take care.

Sam: Thanks, John.

John: This edition of the Impact podcast is brought to you by Engage. Engage is a digital booking engine revolutionizing the talent booking industry. With hundreds of athletes, entrepreneurs, speakers, and business leaders, Engage is the go-to spot for booking talent for your next event. For more information, please visit letsengage.com.

John: Welcome to another edition of the Impact podcast. We are so privileged to have with us today one of the most honored actors in the history of television. Ed Asner has been the recipient of eight Emmy awards and sixteen nominations as well as five golden globe awards and he served as the national president of the Screen Actors Guild for two terms. He was inducted into the tv academy hall of fame in ninety ninety-six and he was honored by the Screen Actors Guild as the thirty-eighth recipient of the prestigious life achievement award for career achievement and humanitarian accomplishment. Welcome to the Impact podcast. One of my favorite actors in my entire life, Ed Asner.

Ed: How do you do?

John: I am very well. How do you do today?

Ed: I am doing real good. And [inaudible] that is an introduction. I think I have to run for president.

John: You should run for president. You know more than most people. That is what I will tell you that right now.

Ed: Certainly no more than the guy whose fat ass is sitting on the chair.

John: Alright, we are going to get into all of that but the first thing- before we get into that, can you just share with our listeners. I mean, listen, I am junkman. You see, I am so excited to talk about your book Son of a Junkman which you recently wrote and I have the book in my hand right now. I have read it. I am a junkman, that is my business. I recycle electronics so to read your story and growing up in Kansas. I want you to share your background before even becoming the legendary actor that you became. Can you please share just some of your upbringing that is in this great book: Son of a Junkman which is available of course in every bookstore and on Amazon.com.

Ed: How lovely. That is an unexpected plug I did not expect to hear.

John: Okay.

Ed: But I am glad to have it.

John: Yeah.

Ed: Because I am proud of the book. I am proud of my past. I am proud of my parents. There is a lot I am proud of. I wish I was a better conductor for keeping the purity and the sanctity that they demonstrated. I wish I could claim it as well as they did.

John: I am loving the book. One of the best parts of the book is how you give thanks to so many people and you really look back with such warmth, admiration, love, and gratitude to so many people but one person, I want to just mention here is a gentleman I have never heard of, George Corporon for teaching me the possibilities in this world concerning news and Ed Ellis my beloved football coach for teaching me the meaning of tough but fair. When I think back to my childhood as watching you on television, as the now legendary Lou Grant on The Mary Tyler Moore show and I think of myself as a boss today, and who I try to emulate myself after. I really do think of the tough but fair Lou Grant. Is this where you got a lot of that Lou Grant persona from, George Corporon and Ed Ellis?

Ed: George was a highly principled man. During the invasion of Europe by the allied armies. He seemed to have suffered from that experience but he kept his dignity and he was married to a hottie and I found him to be an inspirer of ideals no matter how much he may have suffered. He was a beautiful man. My football coach was a beautiful man.

John: Yes. You said, my beloved football coach.

Ed: Yes.

John: That is a nice way to remember somebody.

Ed: He was.

John: Tough but fair. When you said he taught you how to be tough but the meaning of tough but fair. That is what I always saw you as, as Lou Grant, tough but fair.

Ed: Well, I try to be. Probably he said, that is what the writer is trying to [inaudible] me.

John: Did you enjoy writing your life story in this great book, Son of Junkman? Was that a pleasure for you or is it work?

Ed: Not that great a pleasure. Yes, the initial writer Samuel Joseph Warren came forward with maybe four hundred questions. I do not know how many.

John. Wow.

Ed: That made it easy for me because I could open up on each one but then when I saw it was q and a, q and a, it did not please me. I wanted it to have more flow to it. So Matthew Seymour came in and he gave it a flow.

John: Got it.

Ed: And between the two of them, I can happily say that is my life.

John: In the book, you talked about a really colorful childhood in West Bottoms, Kansas City. How would you describe for those who have not had the benefit of reading your book like I have, how would you describe to our listeners the lifestyle of your childhood?

Ed: Well up until, I guess, the beginning of the second grade, I went to Cooper grade school.

John: Okay

Ed: And Mrs. Miller, or Ms. Miller, I can not remember. She was the principal. Since we were one of the well-off families in the Bottoms. I suppose I was kind of spoiled. But my companions, my schoolmates, were made up of nothing but ethnicities. Austrians, Croatians, Serbian.

John: All immigrants. Everyone was an immigrant.

Ed: Yeah. Mexican.

John: Right

Ed: We were segregated so there we no blacks in our school but we had Mexicans and we had the middle Europeans.

John: Got it.

Ed: Eastern Europeans.

John: And you yourself were Orthodox Jewish

Ed: And I myself was a Jew.

John. Right.

Ed: From birth, I was made to see that I am a minority.

John: A minority, even among those other immigrants, the melting pot that you grew up in?

Ed: Yeah

John: Really? Wow.

Ed: Oh yeah. There were no other Jews.

John: Right.

Ed: I mean a block away from my dad’s junkyard was the catholic church.

John: Got it.

Ed: I used to see this troubled old priest and I would be afraid of him. I had no idea what he might do to me.

John: It was fear. So part of being a minority, part of your mindset, and your emotional status at that point was fear.

Ed: Well I was a nothing. I was a nobody. I was the youngest of five kids.

John: Right.

Ed: My daddy was a strict, orthodox Jew, and my mama was a beautiful, lovely plump baby in mama. Needless to say, the junkyard was a crush and a packing house.

John: Right.

Ed: I saw nothing but blood and guts all day.

John: Right.

Ed: I am still looking for myself.

John: Yes but you are the last, if I read this right in the book, you had a bunch of older siblings. Like you just said, you were the youngest of five but now you are the last surviving. What are some of your favorite memories and lessons learned from your older siblings that will stay with you forever?

Ed: Well no matter how much I would have felt when my six-year older brother would pick on me and I would be his patsy. I felt that my sisters were the most beautiful in the land and lovely and liberal. My brothers were the toughest, physically, and mentally who could squeeze six pennies out of a nickel.

John: You know, you are known, we are going to get into later on, how you have used your platform for your activism, and for the impacts that you have made but right now, I want to get into the transition from West Bottoms Kansas to California. When was the turn in your life? For our listeners out there, that you were going to become an actor not to stay in the junk business. As it shows in the book, your family business is still going out in Kansas, it is still in business. So you could have stayed very well and probably stayed in that business if that is what you are dream was, if that was your goal.

Ed: Well it was a wonderful business, an adventurous business. I liked it. If I got into any business, I would have got into that one but I got snared by the acting bug and they lost me forever. My brother and my father both extended their desire to have me come into the business. They were generous in that respect.

John: That is great.

Ed: But I had other visions.

John: Right.

Ed: Those visions took place. I did a radio in high school. I love the radio. I grew from radio. I became an actor because of radio. I concentrated very much on voice in those early years. That is how you made radio. Then we had a local drama show on the local station. We would write scripts and we would produce them. We would act in them and do the music for them. All of that crap.

John: Got it.

Ed: I loved that. I loved it but that was it, you know. In Kansas City, Kansas you did not think of acting as a career.

John: Right.

Ed: That is for big-time folks. Though I went on to the University of Chicago and I thought vaguely of getting into Political Science because I love politics. You had to take required courses from testing, that determine what you had to take. I had about the average. I had about 12 courses I had to take as a high school graduate. So I began and we lived in the Burton-Judson Courts. Very gothic, pre-historic court dormitories that bordered the midway. They were beautiful. I do not know where the girls lived. I never found that out. I should have found that out. I was a slow maturer.

John: Right.

Ed: So I lived in Vincent house and not too long after the year began, somebody, one of the other houses decided to, tried to create a closed-circuit radio show. They start to put on Richard the second as the first dramatic attempt. My roommate was involved in the theater group. I said, “Well, I did a little radio acting in high school. Do you got a read for this radio show?” He threw out it all on me to read. I said, “Okay.” Because he thought of himself as the greatest [inaudible]. This is a farmer boy from Kansas City who would go audition for him. So I sort of went into the room and he sat at the other on his plump ass. I read some Walt Whitman to him. I did not realize it at that time, everybody regarded Whitman as a very difficult poet to read. A brilliant poet, but a difficult one. So I read him Whitman and his jaw fell open. He said, “Where did you learn to read like that?” And I kind of grunted, “I do not know. I do not know.” And he said, “Oh that is good, by all means, read for it.”So I ended up doing the Duke of York. I have never done a Shakespeare but I did the Duke of York and Richard the second. Then time went on, spring came. He came bustling home from school one day. He said, “Listen, the theater group is going to do for the summer show. T.S. Eliot’s, Murder In The Cathedral. You can do any of the roles in it, go check the book out, read for it.” So I checked the book out but I do not think I have read it. I took my girlfriend or I thought to be my girlfriend, to the tryouts and then I read. Once again, I wowed them and they came back and said, “Okay.” They gave me a whole bunch of roles to look over. Finally, I told them why I was going home for a couple of weeks before I started summer school. I said, “Hey make up your mind, what do you want me to do?” So they were kind of between here and there. People were saying yes and no. So they said just to read for Thomas and the fourth tempter. So I did and I ended up doing it two out of the three nights as the show played. It sank me into the theater. Never to be dislodged. I had an epiphany.

John: That is what you are going to do for a living.

Ed: Yes.

John: Lou Grant, growing up, I had never missed an episode. You were, that literally put you on the map, that role for the general population.

Ed: Uh-hmm.

John: You played a journalist. You know, I know, I have heard you speak before many many times. Where do you think we are, comparatively speaking to the era that you played Lou Grant and the mindset and the role of journalism then compared to where we are today in the world of journalism?

Ed: Well I guess the simplest way to say it is that the poor are only blessed in the eyes of God.

John: Hmm.

Ed: I would say as far as professions go

John: Yes.

Ed: Journalists are only precious in the eyes of God. I was a feature page editor on our high school paper and one day, I am at my desk and Mr. Corporon walked by and he looked at me and you know, TU is forty miles away. MU was a hundred and some miles away

John: Right

Ed: Both are good journalism schools.

John: Right.

Ed: He walked by me and he said, “You thinking of journalism as a career?” I said, “Yeah, I was.” I certainly was. He said, “I would not.” I said, “Why not?” “Because you can not make a living?” And it struck me. What is what I want to do, marry, and have a child? The man was saying “Go away, go away.” He was a journalism professor at the high school.

John: Right.

Ed: His job was taken cared of.

John: Right.

Ed: But he was not a practicing journalist.

John: Right.

Ed: I have seen since then, I have seen newspapers close. Fight to exist, fight to exist, be sponsored. To resist being a right-wing dominated newspaper was difficult. So I have always subscribed to the New York Times. I see even there that, with the pandemic, etcetera.

John: Yeah.

Ed: That they have put out local money trying to keep the readership with lots of color, lots of specialties, lots a, lots a, lots a. So even the New York Times is played and bewitched, bothered, and bewildered.

John: The grey lady, you are saying, have seen better days.

Ed: Yes. That is a god damn shame.

John: Your career is fascinating to me. Now that I am older, when I was a young little boy, sixty-one or sixty-two or sixty-three were sort of the time people are supposed to retire and you are one of these unbelievable leaders of your profession and your craft and your art, as there are others in other professions. Warren Buffet being one, and so many others that stay in and actually get better as they evolve and age with not only grace but with just such- It is just fascinating to watch your career. You are now what, ninety years old? And you are still working and seemingly enjoying it and having very relevant roles. I know I have not seen this show but I know Rosario Dawson is on the show Briarpatch which you are on and you are a newspaper publisher. Can you share a little bit about that role and evolving, talking a little bit about our old norms of retirement and why you just kept going and not only going, but like running. You did not walk, you did not crawl, sixty to ninety, you were running.

Ed: Well, besides loving to work and loving the art of acting of whatever you want to call it.

John: Yeah

Ed: It pays. It is a job.

John: Right.

Ed: I am ninety, yes but I am working now to make a living.

John: Right.

Ed: I did not create a good pitfall of money to live on in my old age. I know that most actors do unless they are mechanical or physical geniuses.

John: Right.

Ed: I did not. I should have gone on my daddy’s junk business and I would have learned but I did not.

John: Besides working and staying in so many- I mean, I have seen you and I have enjoyed you personally, Fort Apache the Bronx, JFK, Elf and so many others including broadway. Besides, working for a living?

Ed: Where are you located?

John: I am located in Fresno, California but I grew up in New York City in New York.

Ed: Yes. Well, I found New York to be very unhospitable to me as an actor.

John: Really?

Ed: Yes.

John: Why is that?

Ed: I got my start in New York, of course.

John: Right.

Ed: When I left Chicago, I went to New York and put six years into New York and been swept in an opera half of that time. I just found that New York critics did not care for me. You will have to put some knuckles on their head.

John: Do you still enjoy, is there still the light and joy when you get sent and your agent gets sent new scripts whether it would be for film or for tv? Is it fun opening up the package and seeing what they are sending your way and what possibilities are still out there?

Ed: Yes but at the age of ninety. I do not leap tall buildings anymore.

John: I want to change this topic. From your art and your craft, I want to talk about using your platform that you have honed and developed over all these years of success for making an impact. You are known and I have known you and I am just delighted in watching you, you have become a dedicated activist over the years. Can you share what are some of the worthiest causes you have put your heart, your soul, your resources, your brains behind, and why you chose some of those?

Ed: Well, I should be ashamed because if I was such a god damn activist, why did not I go out there with a placard saying, ‘Black lives matter.’ I worked with blacks all my life. When I worked on the assembly line and steel mills, I worked with blacks, [inaudible] by far, as much as that more so than…

John: You were in Roots!

Ed: Yes. I took Roots because I thought “Well hell.” Because of my innate prejudice in my life, I figured “Well, hell they will not get any white actors to do these jobs. So I must throw myself on the funeral pyre and let them do what they will because I have to serve on this noble cause.” White actors were eager to break each other’s legs to be part of it. That is how badly I misjudged white actors.

John: Wow.

Ed: I was not the only black lover in town by far and if I had used the basis of the blacks I had worked with all my life, in the steel mill, in the auto plants, they would have been numero uno, as far as I am concerned.

John: I saw a picture of you in your book which again I love and for all the listeners out there who have just joined us, we have got legendary actor Ed Asner on with us today. He is so generous with his time. I have read his book. I highly recommend you to read it as well. It is called Son of a Junkman. It is of course available at Barnes and Noble and other great bookstores and on Amazon.com. In this great book, I saw a photo of you with Muhammad Ali and Fidel Castro. Can you share a little bit about what that was like meeting two iconic worldwide figures? And what your thoughts were back then and what your thoughts are now on what they represented to you?

Ed: Well, I was invited to go to Cuba on behalf of Bob Schwartz who headed a charitable group which provided pharmaceuticals to Cuba that they could not get on the open market.

John: Got it.

Ed: Donations, etcetera, and Bob Schwartz is a saint. He fought for Cuba. They should have a statue of him in Havana. I was asked to go, offered to go. Bob was not going so I was given the opportunity to go as a reward for being a letter writer for medical aids for Cuba. I eagerly accepted and so did Muhammad Ali and his wife Lonnie. We went together and it was a great eye-opener for me because to find someone who is so truly adored by everybody, that was Muhammad. God almighty. The kids just automatically fell in love with him. It was quite an experience. Castro really did not have much time to give you the ‘how do you do.’ But you know, he was busy with Ali. Ali was the [inaudible].

John: -the main event. He was the main event, maybe.

Ed: Yeah. We went everywhere. I can remember that I ran into a guy who I had worked for NBC news I think. I do not know how true this story is, but I will you because it is a good story.

John: Yes.

Ed: He said that he had gone to Cuba in the early days somewhere in there. I think he had gone to Harvard or Yale, I forgot which one, whichever one that Castro went to.

John: I think Harvard.

Ed: Harvard, yes. He mentioned the guy that Castro used to end up in a pub with. In a, Where is Harvard again?

John: In Cambridge, Massachusetts.

Ed: Cambridge, yes.

John: Right.

Ed: He mentioned the guy to Castro and Castro did not say anything. That was in the morning. Then at noon, he brought it up again and Castro still did not say anything. In the evening, going to dinner again and he mentioned the guy again. This time Castro just [inaudible] and talked a great deal about this guy blah blah blah blah. This fellow from NBC was quite puzzled by this. So he turned to, I guess an American agent or a Cuban agent and said “How come, how come?” and he says “You do not know huh.” He said, “They are doubles.” The first guy was a double for Castro. The second guy was double for Castro.

John: No.

Ed: And finally at dinner time, he met the real Castro.

John: Wow.

Ed: You know, who knows?

John: That is a great story. You know, just like Rosario Dawson, you are passionate about the environment also. What are some of your causes? I know one of your causes I have read about in the book is autism and I am happy if you want to share a little bit about that. Also, about the environment, I would love to know because you have done so much. This is an open discussion for you to share where you felt you have made some great choices in using your platform to make an important and lasting impact on the world that we live in.

Ed: It is hard to follow that introduction.

John: Let us just talk about things you care about and why you work on things you care about outside of that.

Ed: So I think anything about animals and land is for me. The Trump passage of depredation on our parklands, on our forest lands, is a disgrace. Ignoring of global warming is a disgrace.

John: Right.

Ed: The fact that the barrier reefs have been consumed right and left. This affects all of our lives, humanity’s lives. I mean if you care about humanity and I am not sure if we should.

John: Right.

Ed: You should take care of the barrier reef.

John: Right.

Ed: Because it is all part of our protection. When I read that before the election, Trump’s sons went on a killing expedition to Africa. They got a [inaudible] or maybe an elephant or two, who the hell knows, I soured on them from that point on. I now see that their father is the President, it is like father like son. They are all killers. Enough of that. I fought for Cuba. I fought for a less autocratic rule in El Salvador that was my first plunge into the world affairs followed by Nicaragua and I was sorry about that one because the people I fought for Nicaragua turned out to be schmucks.

John: What year was that? Who do you fight for back then? Who were you working with?

Ed: The Sandinistas

John: Oh the Sandinistas. Okay. Got it. Okay.

Ed: It turned out to be worst. I mean they were gold too. There were good Sandinistas who are gold like the catholic fathers, the Jesuits who were killed by the reigning administration in El Salvador. I can not remember the names now, unfortunately.

John: That is okay. You know we live in confusing times from so many and people are really, there is a lot of confusion out there. Not that other times, there was not confusion and opposing opinions to “Should we be in this war, should we not be?” But the war that we have on-going right now against the COVID 19 virus and the civil war in America, what seems to be a civil war in America with regards to understanding how to make it a better and a more fair and just society for all of us. You have had so much life and experience in you. You are a war veteran. You have done so much in your craft and your career but also done so much in politics, are you hopeful for where we are going? Or are you less hopeful for where we are going right now?

Ed: I am generally a negative, sour person but I must say that with the mobile activity that America has undergone, people moving to Atlanta, people moving to South Carolina, North Carolina…

John: Right.

Ed: Even with Mitch McConnell being a senator from Kentucky is it?

John: I believe so. Yes.

Ed: Amazingly enough did not join the confederacy but somehow, as embodied by him, demonstrates a lot of the habits and traits of the old south. But I think this mobility of America, the transplantation of the people everywhere and the capability of turning red station to blue. I think when this began about a year ago, let us say, I was thinking the civil war is still going on. It is still happening. It is still a possibility blah blah blah but when I look at America now, I see that transitions are taking place at the old south, is somehow being graded over or replaced or transplanted. Going through a transplant, yeah. I think there is a possibility that we could find a common ground. The black lives matter has given an enormous boost in recreating this outpouring in the south. I think if we give it enough time, we will not have to worry about the Coup Clutz Clan or the American Nazi party and this one and that one.

John: Other radical groups. Extremists.

Ed: I think we will have a majority of good middle-class people. [inaudible]

John: Beside legendary actor and dedicated activist and the son of a junkman, you are ninety and you are still doing it. Now, I am almost sixty years old so I am so happy now that sixty-one and sixty-two is not retirement anymore and I am so happy that there is people like you out there, can you just share, before we sign off and say goodbye for today to our listeners, can you share some of your wisdom on just living a long and productive life that really is relevant. That is what you have done, a relevant, long, and productive life.

Ed: I noticed when I took any job that came along that paid the bills. I was not a very selective creature. You can call me a whore but at the same time I created a record in terms of the number of jobs posted.

John: Right.

Ed: Which was enjoyable. Call me a journeyman actor. I will be happy to rest on that. Let the others go to hell.

John: You know what, that might be the best place to end. I just want to say thank you from all of us here in the United States that have gotten the chance to enjoy your great work. Of course, it has been seen around the world but growing up in New York City, a little boy in Queens New York, also from an immigrant family and seeing your great success and following your career, it is beyond an honor to have you on our podcast today. It was wonderful reading your book. For our listeners out there, please buy Son of a Junkman. It is in Barnes and Noble and other great bookstores and on Amazon.com. He is a legendary actor and dedicated activist Ed Asner, I am so grateful for you joining us today on the Impact podcast.

Ed: I kiss you.

John Shegerian: This edition of the Impact podcast is brought to you by ERI. ERI has a mission to protect people, the planet, and your privacy. It is the largest fully integrated IT and electronics asset disposition provider and cybersecurity-focused hardware destruction company in the United States and maybe even the world. For more information on how ERI can help your business properly dispose an outdated electronic hardware device, please visit eridirect.com.

Welcome to another edition of the impact podcast. I am John Shegerian, and I am so excited to have with us today, Ryan Hickman and his dad Damion Hickman. Welcome to impact, guys.

Damion Hickman: Thank you.

Ryan Hickman: Thanks.

John: You know, Ryan, it is not every day that I get to interview people like you who are as young as you and already been on television, in a major television show with a major television star like Ellen DeGeneres. Can you take us back to why you were invited on Ellen? When you were invited on Ellen and how did that whole thing go?

Ryan: Well, I do not really remember that much what happened, but I just think Ellen saw my story just from the internet and she wanted me on her show and I just think that that is pretty cool that she want me on her show.

John: Do you have fun?

Ryan: Mmm, I have lots of fun.

John: Well, it is. Okay, so let us then get to the story. You are humble to just pass over like that. What story did she hear about that prompted her to have you on the show? What did you do? What had you done and created that made her want to have you on the show?

Ryan: I think that was when I hit ten thousand dollars recycled, right?

Damion: Yes, Ryan’s story went viral in December of 2016 and we had done some videos on Facebook and in a way ended up being about two hundred million views of people watching it.

John: Oh my gosh!

Damion: Yes, it was kind of fun. I mean, you do not really expect things to go viral or I mean kind of be fun if it does, but then when it happens at least for us, I do not know if we were that well prepared. But Ryan got an onslaught of phone calls and emails. He was getting about five thousand emails a day and the phone calls were just crazy. It was like ABC News, the Today Show, Good Morning America, Ellen Show, like urgent back-to-back-to-back about[?] and so we agreed to do the Ellen show and it was pretty cool. Ryan got us on dressing room.

John: Whoa!

Damion: It was pretty cool, huh?

John: I love it. How did it go on the set? What did they give you?

Ryan: She gave me a mini car to drive around and she gave me a big ten thousand dollar check.

John: Holy toledo!

Ryan: The check is probably, you cannot see my hand like–

John: Do you still have a copy of it? Do you still have the check in your house?

Ryan: Uh-uh.

John: Where is it?

Ryan: It is on my wall.

John: It is on your wall, your bedroom?

Ryan: Yes.

John: That is a great inspiration. Now, just for our listeners out there. We have got Ryan Hickman and his dad Damion on with us today. They are going to tell their journey and their story and to find their great company, you can go to ryansrecycling.com. Ryan, where else can they find you on social media, which is so important nowadays?

Ryan: @ryansrecycling on Instagram, Facebook and do not forget Twitter.

John: There you go. There it is for our listeners out there that want to find Ryan and his great work and help him get fought[?] move his generation in his mission forward. Now, for our listeners out there, this is how humble Ryan is, you know, I do not know if I– come on, the impact podcast, if I had won all these awards, listen to these awards that young Ryan has one, the Barron Prize young hero honoree. The Paradigm Challenge award, the IBWA Recycling Champion award, the Sand Cloud Ambassador.

Ryan, we can take this whole show, I got like 20 things on this list here; Reader’s Digest top kids of the decade changing the world list. I mean, Good Housekeeping 40 kids who changed the world list. You are like– you had won more awards than Michael Jordan, how does it feel?

Ryan: It feels good. It makes me feel special.

John: That is so great. I mean that is just– I mean. Do you have brothers and sisters?

Ryan: No. Only me.

John: It is only you, where[?] you are.

Ryan: Only child.

John: My gosh! Because I feel, I would feel sorry. If I was your brother or sister. I do not know how I would be able to– I do not know how I could[?] measure[?] up to you. But that is just incredible. Okay, so you went on Ellen, she gives you the big check, so what were you recycling? What items were you recycling that was the core of your business?

Ryan: I was recycling cans, bottles, and glass.

John: That is what you still do at Ryan’s recycling?

Ryan: Yes.

John: Cans, bottles, and glass, and where do you recycle them from? How do you collect them? What is your business model? How do you best collect these items?

Ryan: People find out about me, they start saving the cans, when they have enough they call us. We come to pick them up, bring them home or we had to look for a recycling center. We bring it home, sort it, then we dragged all the way up to OC recycling in Santa Ana.

John: Wow! Is business growing since Ellen? Do you get more and more people requesting pickups? Is that growing year over year?

Ryan: Yes. Before I was on Ellen, I have less than a hundred customers, right?

Damion: Yes, I think so.

Ryan: Maybe like a hundred. Now, about five hundred.

John: You have about five hundred clients?

Ryan: Uh-mm.

John: I mean, I think I have got to bring you to my company and teach sales to my sales people. I do not have five hundred clients. You have five hundred clients, that is incredible. Now, Damion, what is the radius of how far you guys go to pick up these items? I know you live in Southern California. Is it five miles from your house? Is it ten miles? What is the longest you guys have to travel?

Damion: You know, we live in the bottom of Orange County so we pretty much go all of Orange County. I would say it is probably a 40-mile radius.

John: 40-mile radius?

Damion: Yeah, and you know, I mean almost of the majority of Ryan’s customers are within a 5-mile radius from where we live. But–

Ryan: Some on Tustin Santa Ana.

Damion: But, you know, we do go, we pick up farther and we try to group them together. So it is a little more convenient for us. So we are not, you know, spending everything in gas, money.

John: That is great. Is it once a week you guys go out on the journey or is it twice a week?

Damion: We go pretty much every Saturday, but you know, to be honest even with the whole COVID stuff going on lately, people are still recycling and they have been holding it for longer. Now, we will go to somebody’s house that normally has like one garbage bag or two and you know, they got six. It has actually been increased recycling rates. So we are happy people are still recycling–

Ryan: Because everybody is home. They are drinking more stuff, it is like at the office one is throwing it away. At home, they were saving it for me.

Damion: So it has been pretty good keeping us pretty busy and we have been going to the recycling center two or three times a week last two months’ time. So, pretty busy.

Ryan: I think yes. Yes, that seems about right.

John: Wow! That is fascinating. You know, people constantly want to know– that is a great point that you both made about this whole COVID-19 tragedy, so you are saying– because as Ryan just said people are more home they are drinking more things at home, and like Dad said when from a couple of bags to maybe six bags or five bags. So your recycling business specifically is booming since this– wow. So you have taken– [inaudible]. He has given the hallelujah sign here for our listeners who get it hard[?]. I cannot see it, but it is awesome. I mean– that is great. People have not forgotten the importance of the environment and taking care of the planet during even what is a tragic and very difficult period, to say the least, this COVID-19 period, you are saying they are still thinking about the planet, still thinking about being good stewards and environmentalist and you are still getting a lot of product if not more than ever before?

Damion: Yeah, I think so.

Ryan: Uh-huh.

John: That is awesome.

Damion: The pretty inspirational for our whole family is the amount of messages and emails and stuff that Ryan gets on a daily basis from social media and stuff. He gets hundreds of emails and messages from all over the world every day. Other countries seeing videos of him or seeing him on TV or stuff recycling. It is crazy, the amount of messages that he gets from people saying that they recycle now because they saw him do it and I mean we are talking Pakistan, India, Africa and I mean everywhere.

John: So you have friends all over the world, Ryan?

Damion: I should say, even though they are not recycling directly with Ryan? He is impacted[?]. You know, recycling in India, for example.

John: Well, honestly, Damion, that is why I saw Ryan’s story and said, that is why we want to have them on because your story is making an impact. It is making an impact not only on your community within a 40-mile radius like just say where you guys live. But it is worldwide because of social media, now the information being democratized you are making an impact around the world.

Damion: Yep.

Ryan: Uh-huh.

John: Wow! Incredible. Wait a second, Ryan what grade are you in, by the way? I just want to know.

Ryan: Fifth. I am going to go into sixth [inaudible] two weeks for me.

John: In two weeks?

Ryan: Some reason[?] about two weeks. So it speeds[?] in sixth grade soon.

John: Wow, so fifth grade you finished during this coronavirus period. You finish fifth grade at home on home studies, I take it? How do you like that?

Ryan: Good. I like my mom being my teacher.

John: Mom is a teacher?

Ryan: She is the best teacher ever.

John: Your mon is the best teacher ever.

Ryan: Uh-mm.

John: You know, I have some employees that tell me that when they go home, their kids tell them that they need to be better teachers. So that is nice to hear that mom is a great teacher, the best teacher ever.

Ryan: Uh-mm, same with dad.

John: Dad is a great teacher too, right?

Ryan: Uh-huh.

John: Wait a second. Now, I want understand where this came from. You know, it is always fun Ryan learning about people’s backgrounds. Dad is from Colorado, you grew up in Orange County. So was dad’s family or mom’s family environmentalist before? Is that how you got the bug to be such a–, you know, to be our Greta Thunberg of the United States? That is really what you are. I mean, how did you get that bug? Where did you get that bug from? Was it in your DNA or did you read a book on recycling? How did this happen?

Ryan: Well, this dude right here, my dad, he took me to the local recycling center when I was three with two bags for recycling. I just loved it at the center. It was so fun. I just wanted to keep recycling, and recycling, and recycling.

John: You are the king of recycling. What business you on, Damion?

Damion: I am a graphic designer. I am lucky that I am self-employed. So, I have a lot of flexibility in my schedule to help Ryan do some of the stuff.

John: That is great.

Damion: We both are lucky to have that scenario.

John: Right. This is a great partnership, then huh. So Ryan, you are the president of Ryan’s recycling, right?

Ryan: Yes.

John: Does mom work at Ryan’s recycling also besides being your professor and teacher?

Ryan: Sometimes she is more of my– she does my laundry, helped make my bed, helps do the dishes.

John: So she helps take care of the president?

Ryan: She helps take care of Ryan’s recycling.

John: Okay. Got it. That makes sense. Since you are Ryan’s recycling, she is helping taking care of you. I got it. All right. We got the picture here. So you recycle bottles and cans primarily, right?

Ryan: and glass.

John: and glass. When you say glass, what do you mean by glass? Outside the bottles?

Ryan: Beer bottles, like soda glass bottles.

John: Okay. So anything that people drink liquid at them. A beer–

Ryan: Wine bottles,

John: Wine bottles too. Wow!

Ryan: I even recycle some jars.

John: Some jars?

Ryan: Uh-huh. Glass jars.

John: Got you. Remind me who gets all the– when you are finished collecting and you are dropping off to the recycler now, who is getting all those materials?

Ryan: OC recycling.

John: Who is the owner of OC recycling that you deal with?

Ryan: Well, he has the same name as me, Ryan.

John: He is off. So this is a whole Ryan conspiracy in recycling. Recycling starts with an R and two Ryans start with an R. I see how this is going here. This is a whole R thing that is, I see how this is. Wow! Okay, and for our listeners who just joined us. We are so excited to have with us today, Ryan Hickman and his father Damion Hickman. You can find their great work and you could message them either at their website, ryansrecycling.com or Ryan tell our listeners where they can find you on social media.

Ryan: Instagram, Facebook and do not forget Twitter @ryansrecycling.

John: So, Ryan you are 10 years old?

Ryan: Yes.

John: I always like asking people that are much younger than me. What is your favorite brand or flavor? Let us say in social media, do you like Instagram the most, Facebook the most, Twiter the most? What do you like communicating with all of your followers or inspired by you the most?

Ryan: Well, we do not do a lot of Twitter but we do some Twitter. So Twitter is not really my favorite.

John: Okay.

Ryan: I think either Instagram or Facebook.

John: Okay. Well, I am going to start following you today. After the show, I am going to start following you on Instagram.

Ryan: Alright.

John: I will be looking out for you there. Okay?

Ryan: Thanks.

John: Sure, of course. So dad is a graphic designer. I worked with graphic designers my whole life, you know, I grew up in the printing business. My dad was a printer. So I work out to work with designers my whole life. So I understand dad has designed some very cool T-shirts for your website on ryansrecycling.com. Is this true?

Ryan: Uh-huh. I do not have any on right now. I am actually on one of my dad’s shoes[?] design, but I would be wearing one of mine. It says Ryan’s recycling on it, and with crumpled up can on it.

Damion: I think you just[?] got[?] a website.

Ryan: If you guys go to my website at www. ryansrecycling.com you can find my shirts and my hats there.

John: Very cool. So talk about your shirts and your hats, and I am going to buy some today. I am buying some today. When we are done with this podcast, I am buying some. So tell me what happens with the proceeds when you buy T-shirts and hats from Ryan’s recycling.

Ryan: Well, all the money goes to the Pacific Marine Mammal Center in Laguna Beach, California.

John: What is that?

Ryan: They rescue seals and sea lions, elephant seals, harbor seals, northern fur seals that are sick or injured, and keep them till the battle[?].

John: How did you choose that organization? You could give your money anywhere. I mean, some people just keep the money. How did you decide: a) to donate it, and b) why did you choose that organization? I am fascinated by that.

Ryan: I do not quite remember when, I am pretty sure it is because I just like the organization and I just wanted to donate, though.

John: Wow!

Ryan: But then I just kept donating and donating.

John: So on any given week, like give me a number, how many T-shirts and hats you sell on an average week? You do not have to tell me your biggest or your smallest week. Just give me the average.

Ryan: Maybe like once a month.

Damion: No something like that.

John: Okay.

Ryan: Maybe like three times a month, maybe.

Damion: It goes in waves usually when Ryan has a TV appearance or something, we do a bunch, you know, and we had some fun things where Ryan has been on some TV shows and the whatever show he was on, you know, they bought T-shirts for everybody in the audience to help support the Marine Center. A lot of times Ryan gives speeches at schools or videos to schools and like the whole classroom, parts, or the whole classroom or whole grade will buy the T-shirts and stuff. So it is pretty fun.

John: Very cool. That is really cool Ryan. So obviously I am going to have to get– I am going to go on, I am going to– yeah, is it only one type of T-shirt or is it one design or many designs.

Ryan: There are kids, men’s, ladies. [Inaudible]

Damion: So Ryan, I think we are all out[?] of white.

Ryan: Yes.

Damion: So Ryan has his normal branding, his logos, shirts, and hats. We also have a partnership for Ryan with a company called Sand Cloud. We have known them for a number of years there in San Diego. They make very environmentally friendly Beach-type products, like a lot of T-shirts, beach towels, blah blah, and really great people. Ryan got a partnership with them where we came up with a shirt. We called it “make the sea trash free”. Proceeds of that particular shirt go to help a couple of different organizations through them to help with ocean clean ups and those shirts are made out of recycled water bottles. So how many bottles for each? Like eight bottles per shirt, right?

Ryan: Yes. Uno, dos, tres, cuatro, cinco–

John: Is that also on your website? Those shirts as well?

Damion: Yes.

John: Great. Okay. So there is more than one design on your website.

Damion: Yes, and we got a bunch more– so yeah, we got more stuff coming.

Ryan: and there are multiple colors that–

John: What is your favorite color, Ryan?

Ryan: My favorite color is green.

John: Oh you are my kind of guy. Our motto here in our company is “green is good.” It is a pretty cool color, green is good.

Ryan: Uh-huh.

John: Wait a second now, I would assume a young man like you with all these awards here, I mean look at all these– I mean like I cannot– Ryan these take all day for me to read all these awards. I mean you are quite an incredible young man including top hundred most influential people of Orange County. I mean, my gosh! Millions of people live in Orange County. You are top one hundred influential.

Ryan: Uh-mm

John: All right, I am glad I know you now. So wait a second now, I would assume someone like you with the best teacher in the world. It is probably pulling straight A’s in school. Is that true?

Ryan: Yeah.

John: Yeah, pretty much. I figured that. Yeah after this– I mean if I was your brother or sister, I have to be prepared. I mean like you are killing it in business. You are killing it your key[?]. You are helping the environment, you are saving the seals. You have won about a hundred rewards or so and you are a straight A student. I do not know, you live another[?] for the competition, Ryan. There is just nothing left for us. What do you do? How many hours a week do you think that you spend on Ryan’s recycling beside your schoolwork and other things that you do in life? How many hours a week if you were to guess?

Ryan: It depends on how many people call us a week.

John: Okay.

Ryan: Usually about ten hours.

John: Ten hours.

Ryan: If we are going to pretty busy maybe fifteen hours.

John: That is a lot of hours for a young man. That is a lot of hours. You get emails in, people email you and they social media you and they actually call you too for pickups.

Ryan: Uh-huh, yes.

John: Wow! That is interesting. That is just so interesting. So outside of work and school, what is your funnest thing that you do? Like, are you a sports guy? You watch basketball or football or baseball or you are a video guy and do video games? What do you do for fun?

Ryan: Well, I do not play video games. I am not that much into sports, but I do collect coins.

John: What? You collect coins?

Ryan: Uh-huh, I collect coins.

John: That is so interesting. When I was a young guy, I did too. But I mean, tell me what kind of coins or like the hot coins you collect and what gets you most excited about collecting coins?

Ryan: Just getting like old coins, my three most oldest coins. Actually, no four most oldest coins, 1799 British coin.

John: Whoa. Wow!

Ryan: and 1820 US penny.

John: A copper penny from 1820.

Ryan: Uh-huh. It is about the size of a half-dollar.

John: Really?

Ryan: Uh-huh.

John: Wait a second. Have you and mom and dad ever been to the US Mint back in Washington DC? Have you been to where they make the money and seen that yet?

Damion: Yes.

Ryan: Yes.

Damion: We went to the– what is that– the treasury building.

Ryan: The printing place where they print the bills.

Damion: Yeah, we did. We went there last time Ryan had a speaking engagement in Washington DC. So we got to go to that building. It was pretty cool.

John: Wow, so okay. How was that? Was that fun?

Ryan: Yeah.

Damion: It was funner.

John: Wow, so you collect coins. So how many coins do you think right now are in your collection?

Damion: Oh boy, you know what[?].

Ryan: If I would say, I guess– I would probably say about ten thousand/fifteen thousand.

Damion: Yes you got a lot.

John: Wait a second. When you have that many coins part of your collection, I know you study coins, then do you have one like this your grand prize coin that you are trying to one day trade for collect, that you really would like to have part of your collection?

Ryan: Yes. Two coins actually. I think it is a 19– actually three coins, 1912 Liberty Head V Nickel and a 1913 Liberty Head V Nickel, those are only five known of those and then a 1909 VDB Wheat Penny. I mean 1909-S VDB. Those are somebody’s initials.

John: Okay. So–

Ryan: That is pretty rare.

John: How are you going to?– Like what do you do then? Do you email with other collectors and try to do trades or do you go to shows and you try to find them? How does this whole thing work? How do you find your next diamond, you know, like hot coin? Like a coin that you are excited about that you are trying to get. How do you find them?

Ryan: About every three months? There is a Coin Show in Long Beach, California. We usually go to it. The last one we went to I think that was in February. Yes, we went to it and we got some old coins and that is usually where I go to get my coins.

John: So it is at the convention center in Long Beach.

Ryan: Yes, Long Beach convention.

John: You go with mom and dad?

Ryan: Just this dude, my Dad.

John: Just dad, okay. There are lots of folks there that you know like you already know.

Ryan: Yes.

John: They know you and you know them?

Ryan: Uh-mm. I think we know quite a few people there.

John: Really? No kidding.

Ryan: Like six people, though.

John: You just said something interesting. So you went to the treasury where they print the bills in DC when you had a speaking event. Talk about speaking events, you know a famous comedian Jerry Seinfeld, you know who that is, right? Ever heard of him?

Ryan: No.

John: Okay, there is a famous guy named Jerry Seinfeld and he has a joke about public speaking and he said “more people are afraid of public speaking more than dying.” So in other words more people are afraid of public speaking more than they are of dying, Ryan. So do you Ryan Hickman, do you get afraid? Are you afraid of public speaking? Do you get nervous when you go to speak? or–

Ryan: No.

John: You are ready to roll?

Ryan: It is the opposite. I am more afraid of dying than speaking.

John: Well, yeah I am with you, by the way. Hey, by the way, I am with you. How about your side of that equation? I do not think Jerry Seinfeld is right for either of us. But I mean I am with you. I am more afraid of dying than speaking, it is fun.

Ryan: Yes.

John: That is the real statistic. I have looked it up. He is right. That is true statistics. So talk a little bit about– and that he used that in a joke, but he made a whole joke of the whole thing. So talk a little bit about when your public speaking whether it is five people are going on Ellen or any other television show, do you get nervous, you get excited? What do you do? What is your preparation?

Ryan: I do not really– like of course, I get excited. I do not get nervous but I get butterflies in my tummy because I am so excited. I do not get nervous at all.

John: Really?

Damion: Ryan had– when he was on The Ellen Show, that was kind of the first time that we were going to see how he did in the audience and my wife and I were sitting in the audience and are way more nervous because we do not know what he is going to say. For those of you that watch The Ellen episode, you can see it on YouTube or EllenTube or on Ryan’s site. He throws my wife under the bus and he got a really good crowd responds, and so it was– but Ryan has been a speaker at different events with around the world actually with [Inaudible] spoke at the Los Angeles Forum in front of twenty-five thousand people, so some pretty big audiences that– he kills it– I mean, he is not afraid.

Ryan: The biggest audience I have spoke in front of is twenty-five thousand people in Vancouver Canada.

John: What twenty-five thousand people? From my generation, you know, we call that– that is a rockstar crowd. You are like rock-star popular. Where was that?

Damion: Rogers Arena.

Ryan: Rogers Arena, it is a hockey stadium.

John: So you walked in on to the stage and you saw everybody out there.

Ryan: All the seats were filled.

Damian: All the seats were filled when we took him to the Forum to speak. It was pretty cool to be backstage. You can see like a lot of the artists had autograph stuff on the walls and stuff and it was pretty cool to see where the Rolling Stones signs out, you know, Guns and Roses, you know I mean it is like “wow! That is YouTube”, you know, so it is pretty cool.

John: It is pretty cool to be in that company. Those are some rock bands that your dad just mentioned that, you know, part of our generation, my generation for sure. So you are in pretty good company. Like I said, rock star status.

Damion: I will tell you at that particular event, it was pretty cool for us too because Ryan had the chance to meet a lot of celebrities that were speaking at that event and Ryan does not know who they were because he does not watch a lot of TV that they would be in. My wife and I knew who they were, but you know, he met a ton and it was really cool. We got to chitchat when Henry Winkler came up and he gave Ryan a kind of inspirational speech. I told Ryan “hey”, you know Ryan was eight at the time and I had to tell Ryan when I was eight years old that guy was, [Inaudible] the coolest guy on TV. I have a lunch box with that guy, and Ryan is like what is a lunch box, you know. It has been pretty cool with some of those things and Ryan is taking over LeBron James Instagram page for a day.

John: What–?

Damion: He has got shoutouts online from tons of, you know, Chelsea Clinton and George Takei and I mean an endless list. It is pretty cool to see people all over the world, even famous people care about the environment.

John: I think you are the most famous person I have been interviewing. Because I do not know anybody else who is famous like you Ryan. That has been on television, medal of these stars, and is doing so much for the recycling movement, my gosh. Ryan as you said, you are getting messages from around the world, Pakistan, India, all around the world. You are making an impact that goes way beyond Orange County and share some words of inspiration. How do we get more Ryan Hickman’s? How do we get more young people less interested in Xbox or other other things out there and more interested in the environment or making an impact like you are making?

Ryan: Maybe everybody could just make a little or just pick up a few piece of trash. The parents could take them to look recycling center if they have one near them. The kids may think it is fun and they might want to start doing what I am doing.

John: That is awesome. So just a little baby steps first and then that can lead to bigger things in the future

Ryan: Yes. I only took two bags to the center and look at me now. I recycled almost a million cans and bottles. By December, I will be able to hit a million.

John: A million? Unbelievable. You know Ryan, there is a lot of people out there that want to do what you are doing. Is it that hard to start a business like you had started? You know, you are killing the site[?]. You are the president, you run this business with your dad and mom has helped, but I mean being an entrepreneur, what do you feel about that?

Ryan: I feel it is very cool being in my own– not my own, an entrepreneur.

John: Do you like that.

Ryan: Uh-mm. If you ask what is good to be having my own business.

John: That is the American dream. You know, I know this could change, you are still very young and this changes all the time for a lot of young people. But if I were to ask you today when you are 25, when you get out of college or grad school or whatever you do, what is your goal? What do you want to do as an adult? Do you have any thoughts yet, or are you too young to think about that, yet? In terms of what profession you want to go into later on in life? You just want to keep growing Ryan’s recycling and become the largest recycling mogul in the world in and take over?

Ryan: Yes.

John: That is the goal?

Ryan: Yes. You said it.

John: That is a good goal, by the way.

Ryan: Ryan’s recycling.

John: That is a great goal. Do you have any last thoughts before we have to sign off for today or do you have any other things you want to promote or any special thoughts that you want to share with our listeners?

Damion: He does have– we are going to be launching within the next couple of months. Ryan’s got a nonprofit organization that we are launching called project 3R, and it will be geared towards recycling awareness and education worldwide. Like I said earlier with all the emails that Ryan gets from around the world, a lot of places do not have a recycling center and so us being able to provide them with information and Ryan being kind of the face of that. Hopefully, get recycling centers established and just the ability to help other countries and other cities make recycling a part of their mainstream activities.

John: How does that nonprofit will get funded? Would it be from the proceeds from the hats and T-shirts or some other mechanism, Damion?

Damion: It will not be from the hats and T-shirts. We have got a lot of support organizations that are ready to help fund it, you know Ryan’s part of his speaking engagement monthly, and part of different funding avenues will all go into that. It is going to be kind of a hit miss. You know, it is kind of a new thing for us. So we are going to be kind of learning as we go along too but we are going to start out a little small and then hopefully grow it.

John: Awesome. Well, I want you to come back on the show Damion and Ryan and talk about once you launch that how it is doing and we could promote that further once it is launched and you could give us an update once you hit the million bottles and cans you could give us an update on hitting that goal, and just generally just check-in. How is that sound?

Ryan: Yes, that sounds good.

John: We love to have you back. Also, as I promised before we went on the air, once we get through and beyond on the safer on the other side of this coronavirus tragedy that we are all living through. I would love to invite you and your mom and your dad to come up to our recycling facility here in Fresno and be our guest so you could see the largest electronic waste recycling plant in the world.

Ryan: Okay.

Damion: That sounds cool.

John: So then when I want to retire, you could take over this business and you could run this under the Ryan’s recycling business and you can basically control the recycling in the United States at that point. How is that sound?

Ryan: Good.

John: Well, I am gonna buy some hats and T-shirts today and for our listeners to find Ryan, to find Damion, to find all the great and important work that they are doing, making an impact and making the world a better place, you could go to ryansrecycling.com. Buy some hats, buy some T-shirts. Ryan where else can they find you?

Ryan: Instagram, Facebook, and Twitter @ryansrecycling.

John: Ryan and Damion, it has been an absolute pleasure having you both on today. You are both inspirational. You are making an important impact. I cannot wait to have you back on the show again and continued health and success and I cannot wait to meet you in person. Good luck.

Ryan: Thanks.

Damion: Yeah. Thank you so much.

Ryan: Bye.

John Shegerian: This edition of the Impact Podcast is brought to you by Trajectory Energy Partners. Trajectory Energy Partners brings together landowners, electricity users, and communities to develop solar energy projects with strong local support. For more information on how trajectory is leaving the solar revolution, please visit trajectoryenergy.com

John: Welcome to another edition of the impact podcast. I am so honored to have with us today, Tony Sciarrotta. He is the executive director of the Reverse Logistics Association. Welcome to Impact, Tony.

Tony Sciarrotta: Well, thank you very much, John. It is a thrill to be here.

John: You know before we get talking about your great organization and for our listeners who want to find you or your great colleagues, they could go to www.rla.org and they could go to the ‘about’ section. I am on your website right now. It is a gorgeous website. It is easy to navigate. They could go to the ‘about’ drop down, hit that, and they could find your advisory board, your management team, and they can also, of course, find you there and it is very easy to reach out and connect with the Reverse Logistics Association. Before we get talking about all the great things that your organization does, Tony, talks a little bit about the Tony Sciarrotta journey and where you grew up and how you got to where you are today and how you got to be a leader of this very, very, very important organization in the United States.

Tony: Well, and, the world, John, I am going to try to take credit for being a global association–

John: I love it.

Tony: –that really have my heart from Detroit. I am one of the born and raised in the city of Detroit people that has left the city but still loves it. I went to an amazingly intense Jesuit High School in that City that really prepped me for the world. Did a little bit of college, fell into the electronics industry and my wife jokes about the fact that I really started to be involved in selling and dealing with electronics because I wanted a better stereo system. And she was partly right, and she was partly right.

Tony: I fortunately got involved after a little bit of retail spell with a rep firm and then I cut my teeth with Sony Corporation for five years and they were King Of The Hill in the ’80s, and I was there for it, won a trip to Japan, got to experience the bail side of having a great brand in your pocket. And now that I look back I recognize that a great brand name alone can help reduce returns and give customers a great experience and then I moved into Philips for twenty-five some years. Sales and marketing guy could do it in my sleep and I was part of a Sears team, I want to partners in progress in the ’90s and then late ’90s, Phillips somewhat arbitrarily used a consultant and two or three of the senior vice presidents to go through the organization, pulled my resume and my name out of a hat and said, “Go fix returns. We have a big problem.” This was 1998. We had a huge problem and I came out of sales and marketing which is both a nightmare to be handed that kind of role after sales and marketing and second, an opportunity that I had such a passion for figuring out what the heck is really going on. Why is so much stuff coming back? Why does most of it work? And I got taught by the big boys because I recognize if you are going to fix a problem, go out there and talk to the ones with the biggest numbers and it coincided with the fact that I loved working with people to figure out things, that I love to travel and all of those things came together in this opportunity, and by the way, around the turn of the century, Reverse Logistics did not exist very much, right?

John: Right, right.

Tony: Recycling sort of did. But the idea of returns management and recycling, John, not on a lot of people’s– what we did not even have a returns department at Philips. So, and we were two billion dollar electronics company without a returns control group. So I think that all of my growing up in a tough city and going to some really intense educational institutions, and then cutting my teeth at Sony eventually like I said, sales I could do in my sleep, but this was a challenge and and that is where the journey begins, John. You want me to tell some more of the journey?

John: I do and I want I want you to explain like let us frame up in the beginning because of course when I got in the recycling industry, I never heard of those two words together, Reverse Logistics. I had no idea what it meant. So can you frame up what that even means to you and to your great organization and how that term of art came about and so our listeners can understand and learn what that even means.

Tony: Sure and John it is a great story. In the mid to late ’90s, a gentleman named Dr. Dale Rogers and Dr. Ron Lembke wrote a book called Going Backwards. So here I am around a year ’99, 2000 looking for what to do about returns, you Google back then and up comes this book, Going Backwards, which, so help me God I could download for free off the internet. They did not charge anything for it. And some of the practices, the information in that book are still incredibly relevant today and it happened that as I started to go out and look for answers, I came across a company called Genco, one of the big players around the turn of the century, handling returns for Target and Sears and K-mart and others and I literally met Dr. Dale Rogers in person, listen to him speak, said “I got to get to know that guy.” Turns out Dale was from Michigan and went to Michigan State when I was at Michigan and there is a little bit of rivalry there but we got along nicely and I came at it from a sales and marketing background. Like how do you make your numbers and I came at it from an academic view of who knows what the hell they are doing in this space.

Tony: And you know, everyone was just pushing through returns and pushing and pushing no thought to the environment. No thought to reuse effectively. None of that existed and I am proud to say that I learned from the best and when I was at Philips, the numbers were staggering, the numbers were around eleven to twelve percent return rates, a two billion dollar business in the United States, North America and within three years, I had knocked it down to about six to seven percent. And by the time I was done with Philips, it was down around the three percent range, so I was one of the last people standing, you know, how companies turn of the century were going through cuts after cuts after cuts.

John: Right.

Tony: And for efficiency, of course, and I managed to survive one of the last people standing as it kept merging and cutting because somebody had to deal with the returns. And that was me.

John: what a story. So you are really, you were literally at ground zero

Tony: The dawn.

John: Yes, you were literally ground zero for the advent. The advent of what became and a very important part of the entire ecosystem of Commerce. You were at the advent of the Reverse Logistics industry.

Tony: Not only that, John. Back in those days we were coming out of the end of the century with things like six sigma quality control, TQM, Q1, all these top-notch technical quality programs and I was getting the crap beat out of me by the finance team, the CFO of the organization, the CEO, the VPs of sales and and service, like why are you letting so many things come back when there is nothing wrong with them? You remember that, John?

John: Sure, yes. Of course.

Tony: No fault found. No technical fault found.

John: Right.

Tony: The Holy Grail. Ninety percent of these MP3s coming back are no fault found and we are getting forty percent return rates. Well then, I discovered this amazing organization called the ease of use round table. And those people were rocket scientists as far as I am concerned. They were with HP, Intel, Microsoft, Dell, even Apple participating in these quarterly meetings where you say, “How do we make these products easier to use so we do not get the returns and why are so many returns happening?” Those are the days when buying a computer was a six-hour adventure to hook it up, turn it on, and get it to work. Six hours with the average time.

John: Holy, Toledo.

Tony: Did not even have color-coded connections for printers, or for keyboards, or for the mouse, or any of that. So in the process of three to five years of working with that organization, I brought back the concept of net promoter score to Phillips and Phillips embraced it on a global basis. And now you shift from, is the product great? Well sure the product is great. Ninety-nine percent of them all work right out of the box great, but is the experience great? Net promoter score which is fairly large program these days, right? It is well known and when Philips said that board level, our culture has to change. We have to make products that the customers love. It was a throwback to my years at Sony when you sold Sony stuff. Honestly, it was not the greatest product on the planet, but the experience of buying this product that was easy to use made it returned less. So Philips embraced it, other companies have embraced it, so it is no longer the engineers who are dictating return policies and even product design.

Tony: I met human factor engineers, right? Who were they? Usability Engineers. Who are these people? They were so cool, so smart. I brought it in the Phillips and I would like to say that, I am the superstar genius, but I am not. I got lucky to run into the right people at the right time, as you said, at the dawn of this. When returns were flying out of control because of digitization. And you know, the MP3 story, John, is a unique one [crosstalking] because MP3s around the turn of the century literally, if you bought an MP3 player and you plugged it in and used it with Napster and then try to use it with Windows Media Player, your music would be lost. They would not play nice with each other. They would not connect to each other and then if you try to use iTunes and go back to somebody else, you had that whole AAC format versus MP3 and people said, “What is wrong with this thing? It will not play the music I just downloaded.” So return rates, the industry was dying with MP3 players coming back. I am not kidding. It was in the forty percent range.

John: Wow!

Tony: We knew something had to change and that was about all digital products had to learn to play nice with each other and that took a decade or more and then still an issue. And so that was the whole no-fault found holy grail. When you change your view and your priority to making that customer experience better, you would not only have less products come back, you sell more products and who is the rocket science genius on that one, of course is Amazon, right? They learn to make that customer experience amazing, fast, easy, and returns easier than buying. So it has been a long trail and I am lucky to have been in the right places at the right time. And as you said now we have this organization, which I did join the RLA around 2004-2005 when I was just Phillips and when you write magazine articles about the success of what we did, you gain a certain notoriety and you get invited to speak at things and you get to meet some of the real smart people in the industry. And you get to combine what you hear from different places and I wound up sitting on the advisory board of the RLA along with some other colleagues. But we are going to be honest here and talk about the decline of the RLA.

John: Well before we go into that, I want to know how long did it take for others, they saw the success that you were driving at Phillips, and since you were as you say at the dawn of this, how long did it take other OEMs to get that quote-unquote the memo and put others like you in your type of role, find others within their organizations to be the next Tony Sciarrotta, that can make an impact at their organization, at their OEM as well. Was that a two-year deal? Was that over the last dozen years? I mean, how long did that take?

Tony: It is still going on. Unfortunately.

John: Really? Wow.

Tony: Right and you can tell because if you look for people in positions of power like a vice president of Reverse Logistics, they virtually do not exist in any company. Now, you might find some managers, hopefully you will find some director level but you need somebody of power and influence. And by the way, other companies would put returns responsibility in the hands of different organizations within the company like the service group, or the credit group for authorization of returns, for negotiating return agreements. I mean, there is that whole other world that the more I got into it, the more people realize, “My God, Tony is saving us a ton of money. He negotiated handling fees down from ten percent to four percent for our products and you know, four hundred million dollars worth of sales.” That is a fair amount and a hundred million with the returns. So those are big numbers and unfortunately, most companies still have not learned this.

John: Where does it, before we go into, I want to go back to the journey. But before we do that, where should it be sitting, should it be with the chief supply chain officer and that area? Or where should that be sitting now at an organization that is running at full tilt and doing it the right way.

Tony: So the organizations keep making mistakes thinking when you call it reverse logistics, it must belong in the supply chain group. No, no and no because a reverse logistics, a return, is a reverse sale.

John: Got it.

Tony: That is number one. But PNLs are divided in companies. Right, John?

John: Right.

Tony: The PNL is divided that when you sell a product, you make a certain amount of margin on it and that is what the sales group lives on. And then other organizations that deal with what happens after the sale are all having to reduce their cost of operating and processing and handling customer support. They used to do things like measure the call centers’ average resolution time. Right?

John: Right.

Tony: And if you spent too much time on the phone with a customer, what do they do? They cut them off and they kept charging back companies that were spending too much time on the phone, but that was the secret to a company like Zappos, right? Zappos is proud of their extended call center times. They will talk to people forever and they make people happy. So you have got this entire issue of where does it belong. I was lucky. I came out of sales and marketing. So I knew all those people. They all knew me and they decided that I belonged inside sales, inside a sales ops reporting structure, but I indirectly reported to the service and to the credit VPs. So I was a torn apart child in many ways, but it was right because they actually went as far at Philips as to assign part of their bonuses, their annual bonuses to performance on returns management and reverse logistics. Imagine a company doing that. I do not see him doing it today, but we did it at Phillips. Now this meant, John, I was treated like a king, right? Can you imagine like, “Tony, let us go out to lunch.” “Tony, let us go out to have a drink. We want to talk to you about that bonus program. What do we got to do here again?”

John: Right, right. Got it, got it.

Tony: There is another secret, John, about returns management.

John: Okay.

Tony: We get back garbage for returns.

John: Hmm.

Tony: That is when things went a little crazy when plasma TV started coming back on a pallet with other stuff put on top of them and you talking about a seven, eight, nine, ten thousand dollar panel television, flat panel being used as a palette for other crap on it and that just drew the line and I became the collector. I became the enforcer. I took pictures of everything that came back and if it was broken, if it was chopped up, if remote controls are missing, I literally got on planes flew out and imagine this one, to the buyers at these different major global corporations and I can name a few. Certainly the Walmarts, Targets, Costco’s of the world and I show up with a stack of pictures and say, “We got a problem.” And by the way, we collected money back as a manufacturer.

John: Oh. Interesting, interesting.

Tony: We said, “We do not send it to you this way. You should not send a return back that way.” Now by enforcing that, John, that meant that more products could be refurbished and resold into the secondary market instead of being trashed and it started to make a difference and I knew from my sales background you do not just go into the rooms with the eight hundred pound gorillas and say “You will do it this way.” You learn what it is from their sight. What do they face? Can we make the product information tags better? Can we have pictures at the returns desk so that those stressed out lowest-paid clerks in the world at the returns desk with the line in front of them, they take a moment to make sure the product in the box matches. Things like that. These are all very simple, best practices that made you know, again, I am not a rocket scientist, but to reduce returns from eleven percent to three percent over the course of about nine or ten years, I literally, I made jokes about it, John. I would stand on stage and say, “My job is to work myself out of a job. Reduce returns to a point.”

Tony: And honestly, in 2012 that is what happened. Returns were so low. I had already switched from a returns management role to a director of asset recovery. Selling all the returned goods because Phillips and other companies believe in controlling their destiny and their brand by taking everything back. Some companies do an allowance program, right? In lieu of returns and that is always a challenge and then you, John, and your company are dealing with that stuff sometimes just being thrown out for waste, for some rap, and it is all usually fairly good products. So the world has got a long way to go. This gets into those areas of circular economy and recycling and sustainability, and then we start going back to the mothership and saying “You should design it better, package it better.” So that at the end, we are more earth friendly and reusable, and all of that important good stuff.

John: And for our listeners who just joined us, we have got Tony Sciarrota. He is on with us right now. He is the executive director of the Reverse Logistics Association. To find Tony and his colleagues, please go to www.rla.org. Go to the ‘about’ button on the top bar there on the left-hand side. I am on it right now. It is very easy to navigate. You hit ‘about’, you drop down, you find the advisory board and the management team so you can find Tony easily and his colleagues.

John: Tony, you know, talk a little bit about companies. There are a lot of companies out there that are still evolving, that are growing up, and need to understand better. How they need to embrace what your organization teaches and shares the information about reverse logistics. So how does someone go at their company from almost like you said, what you did at Phillips and sales and become the hero of all heroes at their company because they embrace reverse logistics and the value it could drive at a given company.

Tony: Well John, that is a great area to go and I do want to point out that, my wife tells me I am much more handsome than that picture that is on the website. So keep that in mind as you reach out to talk to me, but–

John: That is okay. I do not mind commercial breaks and shameless plugs at all. That is why I am here, you know, we are here to promote great people and great organizations that are making an impact and you definitely have that in spades so any beauty comments you want to make is absolutely fine.

Tony: And John I will also say there is a certain amount of thrill to be in the return space and the returns world. Everything that happens after the sale is how we define reverse logistics, everything. Whether it is the packaging that has to be thrown away, whether it is a– but the thrill of being in reverse logistics world is you have a chance to become a hero. And I cannot tell you, stress enough of what it feels like to be a hero. To stand up on stage, yes sometimes you win awards, but just to be able to stand up on stage and know that you made a difference for your company of millions or tens of millions or even hundreds of millions of dollars by just pursuing this relentlessly and I got to tell you have so much fun along the way because the secret to this is a little bit like the secret of sales.

Tony: You cannot just present the story, the program, the product, the merch program, without getting to know the people you are working with because every company, small example, Target considers their customers, what is the term that they– guests, guests. So you have to recognize that they do not want to mistreat their guests. Costco does not want to mistreat their members. They want to do everything for them. So you have to make it easier for them. But at the end of the day, if you can find ways to make it easier for them, by making product and signage and all of magic things you can do, they love you, because you made it better for them and they recognize that there are those efforts.

Tony: And again, especially about that ease-of-use concept, an example, these docking stations and clock radio dock stations that would have instruction books in twelve languages. Okay, that is not going to work. Another nightmare about those instruction books. Using a lot of words is not going to work, the average reading level in the United States according to Penn State University, that yours truly, according to Penn State has dropped below the sixth-grade level. So nobody thinks about that when they make instruction books in twelve languages and use words. But companies like Phillips got pushed and said, “You know what we need a quick start guide. We need a quick start page. When they open the box, look at some big pictures, steps 1 2 3 and 4 to make this work and do it.” Do not have twelve languages and a lot of verbiage and that does not sound like a reverse logistics function, but it is. It is where you belong because nobody else on the sales and marketing side is doing that enough. So you have to use some influencing skills. But the chance to be a hero, John, is just wonderful and I cannot say how incredible it is because I now have the fortune to lead this global organization and try to share these ideas around the world, knowing you get to be a tree hugger, right? Especially, John, you on your side, you get to be a tree hugger and you can point and say, “We are making a difference.”

John: It is true what you are doing and that is why I wanted you on Impact, Tony, because you yourself and your evangelism and your passion for this and your great organization is making a difference and making an impact and it is so important for people to hear your story and the story of RLA. Go into a little bit, Tony, if you may, what RLA is doing like, okay, we are all living through this horrific tragic period of COVID-19. But talk about during a regular year, post-COVID and beyond, how many conferences do you have a year and what other initiatives, great initiatives, and important initiatives are you focusing on now at RLA.

Tony: So the wonderful part about being in this industry, any important part is we are essential businesses. We are still all working. All of the member companies in RLA are working. Why? Because people are selling stuff and people may be less right now, but people are returning stuff that we do think there is this tsunami down the road of all this stuff that got sold early that will be coming back another as another peak, just like other nightmares. So in a sense, it is still an active year for the reverse industry and maybe somewhat smaller volumes, but it is essential. So I am glad to be in this industry and not in the hotel industry, or the airline industry, some others, and you know, we hope for the best for all of us, for our country, for the world.

Tony: Now, there has been of course some other steps that had to be taken but normally the way the RLA grew up was by having conference events around the world. And I brought those back in 2014 and ’15, the organization under the founder, it started to slip. It had perhaps become too much of a sales organization and not as much a members focused organization. So immediately when I took over completely, I made complete management changes across the board, brought in all new people who I knew from Phillips and other people, companies, and other people that had a passion for this.

Tony: And in 2016 I took over and in 2017, we went back to a conference in Las Vegas. That is our Flagship, North America, normally the largest. We started with about two hundred fifty, three hundred people. We got up to about four hundred, five hundred and then this past year and the year before, we had six hundred and more who have showed up in Las Vegas with an important notice here. I am not a show producer. I am a horrible show producer. I need people to help me figure out what kind of food to order for god sakes. I cannot even think through that stuff. What I do know is content matters. I want people on stage who are going to share the most important information for the people in the audience and give it well said, well done, and well documented. And when it comes to the panels, we try to always have the subject matter experts, our people, who have survived frankly at the retailers and manufacturers in this space and solve some of these problems. And then generally we mix it in with companies like in ERI, John, because you are considered a third party solutions provider or partner.

Tony: So it has to be one side and the other have to balance each other out to get through this and so I am proud of having the highest content possible and I picked each keynote speaker myself personally. I make sure I have heard them before and that they are delivering good information and a good format. And then I made the decision in 2018 to go back to Europe and we have been there in 2018 and 2019. We should have been there this month, but we will do a virtual version in September.

John: God it. And where in Europe is typically that conference?

Tony: So in Europe, we have generally been in Amsterdam. The RLA over its history tended to gravitate towards Las Vegas in North America because of the pull for the whole world and all of the country easily and we do it in early February because right after Super Bowl is quiet time, it is a little bit busy in returns, but it is a good time get out to an event. And then in Europe we were trying to do June. And then last year after June, we went to Asia in September in Singapore. And again, if you look at the board companies like the HPs and Dells and Intels and Ciscos, of the world and even the Amazons and Home Depot and Walmart, they all exist to some degree around the world. So the board represents the strength of the speakers that we can draw. I am saying we draw in, in Singapore, we get Del Asia to come and speak, we get HP Asia to come and speak, and Philips in Asia to come and speak. So we try to be local with the global companies and again content, content, content. We do not have advertising from the stage. I love to have sponsors on stage. I love to have a company like an ERI help to moderate the recycling panel’s best practices, things like that and that is a good combination, but nobody stands up there and talks about their better mousetrap because we need to know about all of them, not just some of them. So that is our focus for our event.

John: What are you most excited about second half of 2020 and we are going into 2021 then so the next eighteen months, what initiatives are you most excited about the next eighteen months?

Tony: I am hoping that Oxford University comes through with this vaccine that they are talking about and delivering a billion doses by December because I think at that point people would be excited about coming back to Las Vegas next February to another event. Initiative wise I take the RLA, it is the serious responsibility and here is what we owe the industry. We owe education, and we do not have a certification program. And I went to a couple of the global powerhouses, our CSCMP and Apex and ASCM. These are the education associations and they have forty-one chapters, forty-one different courses offered in supply chain. And only one course with one chapter talked about reverse logistics. That is a shame. None of the universities with one exception in North America have a reverse logistics degree or Masters. So that is a shame. So I am proud to have Tim Brown from Georgia Tech on the board. We are working towards offering education because the world needs that. There are not enough individuals that think like we do about how to fix these things and make them better. So education is important. I think the industry numbers are important and we do not have a handle on it yet but we at least have a willingness to support putting together– by numbers, I mean, John, for example, would it not be a help to know how many bleders are being sold in North America and how many are being returned. I do not care what brand it is, it can be KitchenAid, it can be Oster. It is not the brand and I do not care who is selling them and I do not need to reveal that it is Walmart or Target or Amazon. We just need to know how many, what is the volume, what is the size of that space because it helps companies like on the third-party side plan for okay, if there are a million blenders sold and we know ten percent are return and come back through the channel there is a hundred thousand. Now of that, fifty percent can be refurbished and resold, we need warehouse space to handle that and then we have another fifty percent, they are going to need to be either scrapped or recycled. I mean that that is valuable information.

John: Very!

Tony: That is a major initiative. We owe that to the industry and we will get there. We will get there.

John: That is wonderful. I love it.

Tony: I have one last initiative dream and this is a matter of needing resources and we are spread a bit thin trying to do everything we are doing but the ultimate resource for all of us in addition to the numbers for the industry will be for the consumers. We have a council of councils working on the concept of like, instead of Carfax, see effects. So if you go looking for a television and you know the serial number, you will know when was it born, where was it born, when was it sold and shipped the first time, where was it refurbished? And now I am buying it from Amazon or someone else online refurbished. There is no refurbished database. The Consumer Technology Association talks about numbers a lot. But no one has gone in that direction. That is my dream. We will get there before I get out of the RLA and turn it over to some other competent people, but that is the third dream on that wish list. The numbers and the CE facts and also seeing all of us go back to work on a near normal or new normal basis because some of what we have learned in these last three months I think will help us going forward. These wonderful communications like podcasts and Zoom meetings and all of that, John. They are really good communication tools and they are teaching us to think more about what we are doing.

John: And although I have given out your information before, I am going to give it out again. To find Tony and his great organization, the RLA, go to www.rla.org. Go to the ‘about’ button, which is on the top bar left-hand side, drop down and you will find the advisory board and the management team. Tony, communication is so important and leveraging communication tools that exist now that did not when you and I were young guys is also important. Talk a little bit about the power of LinkedIn and how you have harnessed it at RLA to get the good word out about your important work.

Tony: Thank you, John. LinkedIn is certainly one of the best business tools out there. For example, John, and I look at building this organization globally in a stronger, stronger, stronger way, and I am always amazed that people still do not know us. Now, reverse logistics, if you look in LinkedIn, there is somewhere north of a hundred and twenty-five individuals around the world that have reverse logistics in their job description or their title. I only have about twenty-five thousand registered in our community and our registration is free to join the community. We do have the memberships for more benefits, but we do have an open registration for more people to join. So LinkedIn is a major tool for us. We have a reverse logistics group, a Reverse Logistics Association group page. We go on there a lot. That is our social media to promote things like today’s webinar and upcoming committee meetings. And so LinkedIn is a tremendous tool. What we have not yet done, and we are going to, is use other aspects of it such as the Navigator, the more premium opportunities to look for things and for people because until we launched our new website last year, late last year and got the kinks worked out by showtime and we just added a few new benefits. I did not want to, I want to give people a better experience than they expect. And that is the secret in life, is under promise and over deliver as best as you can and that means, that does mean under-promise means really being conservative and cautious about what you say you can do to help people and then show them that yes, we can do that but now that you are here, this is what else we are going to do for you and that is my focus.

John: Well for my experience as executive chairman of URI, I have never had the pleasure of being to one of your great events, but my team has they said it is one of the most important events of the year so I can only share with our listeners our own experiences that if you have not been to Tony’s event, one of Tony’s RLA events yet, go to them. Get involved, join the organization. It is very important to what we are doing with regards to OEMs, recycling, and good practices and Tony, I just want to say thank you for coming on today. You have made an important impact on the environment, on the world. You have made the world a better place so as the RLA and for that, I want to say, thank you so much.

Tony: Well, thank you, John. We are going to keep doing it.

John: I cannot wait to have you on again, and I cannot wait to come to your next great event.

Tony: I look forward to it. We hope it is February 9, 10, and 11 right after Super Bowl next year. If there is a Super Bowl, normal, we will be there in Vegas with an important large group of influencers in the industry.

John: And for people to find out more about your great events and about all the initiatives you discuss today, they could then again go to www.rla.org. Tony Sciarrotta, you made an impact on me today. You are making an impact on the United States and around the world. And you are making the world a better place.

Tony: Thank you so much, John.

John Shegerian: This edition of the Impact podcast is brought to you by the Marketing Masters. The Marketing Masters is a boutique marketing agency offering website development and digital marketing services to small and medium businesses across America. For more information on how they can help you grow your business online, please visit themarketingmasters.com.

Welcome to another edition of the Impact podcast. I am John Shegerian I am so honored today to have my business partner Brendan Egan. He is with us today joining the Impact podcast welcome Brendan Egan.

Brendan Egan: John thank you. I am honored, humbled and excited to be on and to be one of your earliest guests and I think we are going to have a lot of fun today. So thanks for having me.

John: We are and just as a little bit of truth in advertising for our listeners out there. Brendan does all the marketing for ERI, a recycling company under his other brand name company simple SEO another great brand company that Brendan is co-founded and is the CEO of and he is my business partner and the CEO of the Marketing Masters. So Brendan, I want you before we get into the Q&A part of this discussion, share a little bit you are very young and massively successful for your youth and you have accomplished so much. Can you share a little bit about your background and your journey from just starting out of school to where you are today and how you got to such a position of success?

Brendan: I appreciate those words on I think there is a lot of people that are far more successful than me, but I have been fortunate enough to find a lot of success as you mentioned at a young age and I think it really comes down to just putting your head down, doing hard work and grinding through and scaling the things that work and cut the things that do not so I was born and raised here in Chicago in the suburbs and was fortunate enough to go to some great schools, meet some great people but when I was 10 years old and all my friends were out playing video games and enjoying themselves my very very first business they started going door to door and my neighborhood and knocking on doors and I started a company that raked leaves and shoveled snow and you know started doing that myself at first and it started to grow beyond what I wanted to do so I had some of my friends working for me. So literally I started very very young in terms of entrepreneurship, I would not call that a true company but it was something that really got me my first flavor of what it is like to have a business, to run a business. Fast forward a few years John and I during the great stock market crash of 2008 I started day trading. I very vividly remember I was sitting in the bedroom of my mom’s house in college and I was watching my tube television of all the different traders that were pull their hair out as the market was crashing and just losing their mind and just the way that my mind thinks I said to myself, ‘hey, I that is something that I have always been interested in I bet I could do it I bet I can make money doing this’ and you know fast forward a year or two and I became pretty successful at that made a decent amount of money for a kid that was in college. In 2008 later in that year, I founded a company that I called learn to trade. It was a company where I wrote an eight hour long video course that taught other people how to trade in the markets how to be day traders and swing traders. I also did consulting with that company. In 2012 I ended up selling that company and the reason that I sold it is kind of interesting. So we actually became incredibly successful, we had first page google rankings for all the major keywords, we had wonderful advertising campaigns running and the reason for that is that I tried to hire probably six or seven different companies to run our marketing and every single one of them were the slimiest biggest rip offs in the world some of them were based in California, there were a few base in Chicago I hired one that was based in Australia and they all did terrible work for me they all got rich off of me and you know charge us thousands and thousands of dollars per month and we saw no ROI so I started doing the marketing for that company in house I built my own in-house team for that and before I knew it I had friends, family and colleagues asking me ‘Hey, can you help me with my marketing, can you help me with my SEO can you’ you know I have had the same experiences that you have had and your company is incredibly successful in those areas. So after I sold the company actually before I sold Learn to Trade, I started simple SEO and then once I sold that company, I really full time started focusing on scaling and growing simple SEO and as you know, John a few years later, I was fortunate enough to meet you and we became partners and launched our own agency the Marketing Masters, which is also been incredibly successful. So that is kind of how I got there and you know really over the last decade my biggest focus has just been running the agencies and scaling them, working with all of our wonderful clients and getting them results and continuing to grow our marketing companies.

John: So I hear the theme then Brendan of just your absolute hyper-focus, hard work and not a lot of shortcuts.

Brendan: I do not think there is many shortcuts in the world. I think that every now and then John we get lucky as you know and we find maybe something that somebody else did not stumble upon or we find something that temporarily gets us a huge advantage but at the end of the day, I think if you are in business for the long run, which all of us should be. I do not think there is a lot of shortcuts, I think it is really a lot of wake up every day with the right attitude, with the right approach, roll up your sleeves and get the work done and whether you are doing the work yourself or if you have a team of five people, five hundred people, five thousand people, it does not matter you need to be a good leader, you just show them that hey you are willing to roll up your sleeves and do the work and you know, John you and I have had many phone calls at midnight and then we have had many phone calls and next morning at 6 a.m. again, you know so you and I both know that there is really no shortcuts and you really just need to put in the time and if you do the right things with the right people and put in the time put in the work, I think you are going to find success in the world of business.

John: I love that. In terms of mission your core mission, what drives you to do what you do every day?

Brendan: I think all of us in the business world in some way are driven obviously by money. If we were not making money, I think it would be much harder for us to do what we do but I also like doing things John as you do I know that make an impact and so what a fitting name for your podcast impact, I love that word impact and I love doing things that make an impact in some way in someone’s life and in the world and so that looks different for different, you know projects different things, you know, John obviously, we are partners and engage which is a wonderful business for booking speakers that we have some young great partners, Daniel Hennas, Jake Olson, Michael Olson, Noah Schwartz, you know for those that do not know Jake story, Jake was on John’s podcast a few episodes ago and I recommend listening to that Jake was the first blind, NCAA football player and so you know when the opportunity for engaged came along, I felt that we could not only make an impact in that industry and grow a successful business but you know, we could also help make an impact in some young lives or some kids that you know, really have good heads on their shoulders that had a great business concept that you know, we are struggling to figure out how to scale it and how to make it work and we are struggling to figure out what they were going to do when they graduate to college. So, you know in that regard that excited me and made an impact there. For other clients, you know, I we have tons of clients as you know, John that are in much more boring industries and so maybe making an impact just means ‘hey, let us find them a ROI, let us find them a marketing strategy that works for them, let us find them something that can impact their business and so you know, one of the fun exciting things that make about being an entrepreneur is that your mission can change but at the end of the day your two core strategies and missions are making money and for me making an impact in businesses and in people’s lives and hopefully in some way impacting the world to make it a better place.

John: I love that and is these not these nothing to be embarrassed about to say that you are in business to make money we live in one of if not the greatest country on the planet in terms of innovation, entrepreneurship and democracy and capitalism. So, there is no shame in saying we want to be successful and make money and make an impact at the same time. Did you feel the same way?

Brendan: You know, I feel sometimes John like the world that we live in today and you know I am pretty young I am in my early 30s. So I have not been around quite as long as you have not seen as many different generations and things but you know, I feel like the world has evolved over the last 10 years to almost make you feel guilty for making money, you know, there is almost this attitude that if you have a successful business and I have seen it I mean I have seen friends, I have seen family, I have seen colleagues that treat you differently because you are successful financially and you know, I have no shame in it because it is not like we sit back and print money, it is not like we do some shady thing that makes money or we found some sort of secret that no one else can have you know, as I talked about earlier we put in the time, we do the hard work, we take the risk and we just as easily could fail at things that we succeed at and so there is tremendous risk in everything that you do in business and so I feel like without that monetary reward at the end of the tunnel for the things that work, you know, it is much more harder to internally be motivated and it is much harder to justify taking risks and doing things that maybe would not work out. So I know my philosophy is similar to yours John is, you know, scale the things that work and cut the things that do not and if you do not have money as a gauge or as a motivator to figure out what works and scale it, you know, you almost lose that balance of being able to do that. So I have no shame in it and you know, it is something that I talk a lot about is, you know, ‘hey if you are in business, there is probably a lot of different reasons beyond money that you are going to be in it and that motivate you but at the end of the day, I think every single one of us is ultimately driven and motivated by financial gains.’

John: Well said, you know Brendan everyone has little idiosyncratic superpowers that they rely on to help them either get through the day or be more successful and get the most out of their day and the most out of their life. What is your one secret super power that you could share with our listeners to make them better every day and what they are trying to accomplish.

Brendan: I think it is one superpower John that I think is a couple different aspects that make it work. The superpower that I think gets me through my day and makes me successful is focus and I think how you get focus is sometimes different for different people but for me personally, there is a few things that I have found really drive my focus it is having a set schedule, you know, making sure every single day you have the same habits, have the same schedule, wake up at the same time, go to bed at the same time you know, I kind of joke with people that I am in my 30s, but I live the life of a sixty-year-old because literally whether it is Friday night, Saturday night, Sunday night or Tuesday night, it does not matter I go to bed usually between 9 and 10 p.m. you know, of course, there is exceptions to that but stay on say on a schedule, have a schedule set for your work day in terms of what you do. Another big part of my focus is exercise and eating well. I think if you are not healthy and if you are not, you know, moving around and getting exercise and fueling your body properly, it is hard to focus and then just to avoid distractions. We live in a world where as you know, John there is a million different things coming your way at once from social media, text messages, phone calls, emails, mail, you know, literally at any point in the day, you can just be bombarded with contacts and information and so find a way to be responsive but also find a way to be able to set that stuff aside and carve out some space for yourself to focus. So my superpower that gets me going is just being able to focus and being able to sit there and put my head down sometimes for you know, one two three hours at a time and just get my tasks done and get myself in that zone where I can really focus and get my work done.

John: So that goes along with also your time and health hack, focus helps you manage your time better and helps you stay healthier and as sharp as you can be is that not true?

Brendan: It is a hundred percent true and you know in terms of time hacks, so two things there is time and health but one of the things that I try to do as a business owner is I try to look at things that take me greater than 20 minutes and figure out how I delegate those. So there is only so many hours in the day. There is only so much that business owners can do you know with the precious time that they have and if you are sitting there spending hours and hours and hours on a task, there is a good chance that you should probably be delegating the task to someone else or having someone else do it. So I try to really focus on things that you know, take less than 20 minutes in my time or that require, you know, my expertise or require a business owner to do. Everything else I tried to have somebody on my team do it and you know, really just delegate that and be strategic in the things that you do but in terms of like health hacks, I do a variety of things I do not have one. There is not a silver bullet just like there is not a silver bullet in starting a business or in marketing, there is not a silver bullet in terms of health and so my philosophy in a lot of this is thanks to you John because you have taught me a great deal of health over the years and have introduced me to some great books and some great people and great resources, but I really have kind of two or three big components to health, one is eat well so eat clean obviously you are going to have exceptions to that but try to always eat clean and eat well. I am a huge fan of green juices as I know you are as well John and I make sure every single day I have at least one or two juices just to get all my nutrients in. The second hack that I mentioned a little bit ago is exercise so I try to do I actually built last year a gym on my home just to try to be more time efficient and so I try to do cardio and weights at least once every single day also a huge fan of using a sauna I think it is great to just kind of heat your body up and sweat everything out and as you know John, we are in the middle of launching a new company together with red lights and so red light therapy I think is a tremendous benefit to entrepreneurs and business owners to just get the most out of your body feel energized feel good. A lot of times we are stuck, you know indoors and we are getting all this junk blue LED light and so red light and infrared light is a fantastic way to kind of reset your body, reset your circadian rhythm and you know, just keep your body the best and freshest that it can be. So those are kind of my biggest time and health hacks.

John: All great things and our listeners would get a lot out of doing any of all those things that you just mentioned because I know they work I do myself and I think you are spot on I think that is great, great advice no matter what age you are. The healthy you are, the better you can be the best that you can be then so I think that is great Brendan. Brendan there is a lot of listeners out there that need some help on their journey. They feel that once they had have had a job or two or gotten a profession or degree in a specific subject that they just stuck and there is a lot of people that are listening to you and want to be the next Brendan Egan and be a serial entrepreneur that makes an impact with a company like the Marketing Masters or engage or trajectory energy or any of the many companies that you are very involved with. Can you give any advice for our listeners who want to change their path or course and figure out something new to do that they are more passionate about. Where they also then get to make an impact on their community or the world at large?

Brendan: I think the only person standing in their way John is their selves and I think that anyone out there can make a change in their life for the positive whether it is a small change whether it is you know, sitting down and talking with their boss and saying that they think they can contribute more at the company or whether it is a big change like you know, leaving your job and starting your own company and becoming an entrepreneur. I think the only person standing in their way and creating fear is them and it is in their own heads. Now I was fortunate to start my business at a really young and so I think that afforded me a lot of luxuries that a lot of people who are older maybe do not have it you know, I was at an age where I had very little fear, I had very little standing in my way of starting a business, you know, the risk of failure was very high but you know, the consequences of failure were very low given that I was a young college kid when I started my first real business. I also kind of in my head, you know said to myself ‘hey if I cannot make my first business or to work that you know going out to college I was going to go out and find a normal 9 to 5 job or whatever it may be so, you know, I had that luxury of doing that because of the age that I started so I certainly understand for our listeners that you know, maybe you have a mortgage to pay for, have a family that they are taken care of. It is much scarier and much more risky. With the internet I think it is amazing how easy it is though to start a business these days. So whether you want to sell a product, sell a service, you know whatever it may be there is a lot of people that I think can still work a 9 to 5 job and can kind of moonlight whatever that other business maybe until they reach a point of profitability and successfulness that they can leave their normal job so you know I think the internet has really brought the ecosystem in the world and to everybody’s living rooms and you know, there is pros and cons to that but one of the biggest pros is that you know, look at all the internet entrepreneurs that we meet John I mean there is you know, there is college kids, there is people in their 70s that have an idea for a product that are starting it online and everyone in between. So I think that you know, if you do a little research if you do some reading and I hate to plug our book, but John and I have a wonderful book on marketing that is a great starting point for somebody that is looking to start a business and market it, you know, if you have a good idea and if you have a good marketing strategy, I think anyone can kind of moonlight, start their own business and then once it reaches a level of success can leave their job and make that their new full-time gig.

John: Hey for 99 cents our book is a in the kindle version is pretty worthwhile.

Brendan: You and I certainly are not eating dinner tonight on our book we really wrote it for people to really have a resource to learn from so, you know, I am glad to see so many people are taking advantage of it and it you know kind of warms my heart to see that we are able to help so many people for such a modest price point.

John: Yes and I just want to share with our listeners what Brendan was just talking about in terms of the internet, I could not agree more and really the net-net of that is and is so well said by you Brendan that the internet truly has the marketized entrepreneurship.

Brendan: It absolutely has.

John: And that is unbelievable opportunity for all of our listeners out there that if they want to make a change, they do not have to give up their nine-to-five job. They could keep one foot in that and keep the income coming in while they start up their vision, their dream, their opportunity and anyone that contacts you or reads the book or both can find that online opportunities are just boundless still and are not going away in the years ahead so I think that is great. Before you know, we have to say goodbye here a couple things Brendan. First how do our listeners connect with you, you are a very personable person, work with people one-on-one and you are also very connected and easy to work with and reach. I want you to give any of the resources how you want our listeners to get in contact you with.

Brendan: I will give a long list, but anyone that wants to contact me is more than welcome to. I am happy to help with anyone’s marketing needs that they may have. Easiest way is to go to the marketingmasters.com and hit the contact button. You could also go to my personal site, which is brendanegan.com. that is where my podcast lives. You can also go on LinkedIn I am very active on LinkedIn and you can also follow me if you would like on

Instagram egan.88 is my Instagram handle.

John: That is perfect and any shameless plugs, this is your time to promote anything and everything you want to promote Brendan.

Brendan: I would love to just promote once again our book. I think that over the last two years John you and I have put a lot of work and sweat and tears into that book and I think that it is fantastic resource for anyone that needs some marketing help and some marketing tips. It is called a Hundred One Tips from the Marketing Masters and it really focuses on all areas of marketing and especially on digital marketing providing actionable tips and strategies that we use every day at our agency to help our clients grow. So it is a wonderful tool I think for business owners and for people that are maybe looking to start their own business or looking to supercharge and grow their business just to kind of understand some of the different tactics and strategies that we use as an agency and kind of better understand that hey just doing SEO or just doing email marketing does not mean that you are necessarily doing it right or that you are necessarily doing all the little steps that are involved in getting the most ROI in the most success out of your campaign. So that is kind of what we wrote the book for and is John mentioned it is available as an e-book for just 99 Cents. So, there is really no price barriers and there is no reason why somebody would not grab that and even if they just learn one new thing from it, it is well worth it, it is weight and gold.

John: How about this you want to give away five copies to the first five people that contact you and ask you for some for copy of the book The Marketing Masters?

Brendan: I would love to give away 50 copies of the first 50 people that contact me. So anyone that wants to take us up on that feel free to email me [email protected]. Just say that you listen to the Impact podcast and we will get you hooked up with a free copy.

John: Brendan you are not only my great friend and business partner, but you are truly a great example and living proof that everyone who wants to make an impact can and make the world a better place. Thank you again for joining us today at the Impact podcast. It is an honor to have you here.

Brendan: Thanks I appreciate it.

John Shegerian: Welcome to another edition of Impact podcast on John Shegerian. And today, I’m so honored and privileged to have with us Scott Schober. He’s one of the top Cybersecurity experts in the entire world. Welcome to Impact, Scott.

Scott Schober: Hey, thanks for having me on John. This is great. Looking forward to a nice discussion.

John: Oh me, too. And you know, there’s no more timely period than to have this discussion with an expert like you, you know, the statistics that I’ve beengleaning from the FBI and other Federal officials is during this Covid-19 tragedy. Cyber crimes are up four times. But before we get into, you know, why your services and your books and your podcast are so important to all of our listeners out there. I want to share a little bit about I want you to share a little bit about your journey. How did you kid from New Jersey become one of the top cyberexperts in the entire world?

Scott: Yeah, it’s actually kind of an interesting backstory. Our company and I’m the next generation was founded 48 years ago by my father, Gary Schober. So it’s really a true family business in that sense that was founded in Berkeley Heights, New Jersey and hence the name Berkeley for Berkeley Varitronic systems, and we’ve always done kind of niche unique designs for companies. They come to us with a problem and then we would provide a solution. And we really had a kind of a growth spurt at the infancy of the World of Wireless when it kind of kicked off in the mid-80s, 1980s. We were doing a lot of stuff for the TV networks, audience television research, finding out what people are watching on TV with some unique algorithms and we license a lot of the technology to the major networks, but then we were approached by a company down in DC and they asked us to develop some of the very first Wireless test tools to find out where to put the cell towers and to measure how signals propagate all to make cell phones work and that took us in the first generation of traditional cellular mobile phones as we know it when they were giant bricks that we held to communicate and rich businessmen use them to where we are now going from the 4G fourth-generation to 5G fifth generation advanced smart phones that we see around the globe. Everybody’s got a smartphone or two on them. We develop all the test tools that make that technology make phones work. In the process of that we learned a lot of the vulnerabilities and how hackers will exploit a smartphone especially in the past ten years or so because your smartphone is really more powerful than most desktop computers these days. It’s like a supercomputer. So hackers will traditionally use that so they could gain access as a conduitto get into companies so they can find their way onto the network, work laterally, place malware, collect data, steal personal information passwords, whatever the case may be. So that kind of brought us to where we are. And then about five six years ago, I began developing a lot more security related tools. We call wireless threat detection tools mostly to U.S. DOD agencies and fortune 500 companies to keep their boardroom safe, to keep classified information safe from hackers things like that when there’s wireless threats and the more I educated and shared information in from presentations and whitepapers, E papers, whatever the more the hackers start the set their sights on my back and next thing you know is I became personally and my company a victim of repeated hacks and it started out innocent as probably all of us or all your listeners. May be a debitcard my debit card got compromised and my credit card personally. Then the company’s credit card and the company’s debit card they got reissued then it happened again and it happened again and happened again. I said something is wrong in here. Then my twitter account was hacked. Then we received repeated DDOS attacks distributed denial of service attacks with a flood your website with garbage traffic so you can’t do online commerce and now we’re not able to sell our wireless tools online our wireless security tools. So this kept going on things got worse and worse to the point where one morning I came in to work on Monday morning and looked at my computer went online to the bank account and $65,000 was taken out of our account. And that’s when I said guys this is not good. I got a serious problem, called the bank, law enforcement got involved since it exceeded 50,000 dollars in the federal investigation. So as you can imagine letters, phone calls everything under the sun and I finally was able to get all the funds back and cards reissued and so on and so forth, but in the process of being hacked and hacked again, and again, I learned a lot and I always thought as a security company and security minded people here we would never be a victim of that and I learned the hard way. So I learned we had to do some a lot of best practices that you assume you do, you don’t do because you get kind of complacent or a little lazy.

John: Right.

Scott: So then suddenly it’s you know, how do you secure passwords? And how do you secure information? How do you properly shred documents and dispose of things which you guys are certainly experts at computers, printers, fax machines, scanner understanding where the treasures are in your company and valuable information that you properly get rid of that. So nobody can compromise. It goes a long way so I kind of take people through myjourney, and then kind of the emotional side as a business owner and consumer and help them see where I went wrong and what I learned in the process. So hopefully, they don’t go down the same path that I’ve traveled and they could kind of empower themselves to be secure at home, be secure within their own businesses and train and share information and not being an island and keep being a victim of repeated hacks and that’s really the genesis and kind of the backstory of hacked again. And that, it was kind of funny when it first happened. I was very embarrassed. Here we are a security company and we’re- and the story kind of got out there trickled out there and we really kind of kicked it off. I got a call from the Associated Press and they were doing a feature story on it and they said they heard my story and wanted to interview me and I said, “Geez, I don’t know if I feel like going on record that I’m in I’m officially an idiot here and I let everybody down” but I said, you know what,it’s out there and I said if I’ll do it if this will be done in the sense where it will help other people so they don’t make the same mistakes I did. And after that interview, boom the idea for a book started to come together and I started documenting it and and here we are today.

John: You know, and I know your brother is partners with you also in the business. Is your dad still involved with the business?

Scott: Yeah. Yeah. He’s really retired. He’s technically our CTO still so he comes in to make sure we’re not bankrupt ordidn’t destroy the business yet, but he doesn’t he’s not active in the business anymore. He’s really retired with a fishing pole on a lake and just probably laughing at us working our butts off. So it’s good that he deserve that he worked hard he built up a great business and our business is predominantly word-of-mouth. We really don’t advertise which is kind of rare for a 48 year old company to survive the ups and downs and the recent challenges even with this virus, the Covid-19 stuff survive through it and thrive through it. I think it’s kind of a testament to our corporate culture and the legacy of a family business in America today. So it’s kind of a privilege. I always feel just to work here and have a part in it.

John: That is so- I really agree with you on all those points and for our listeners who just joined us we’re so excited to have with us today Scott Schober. He’s one of the top Cybersecurity experts in the entire world. He has a lot to say on these topics, I would listen and also read his books now. We’re going to get to your books in a second but to find Scott go to www.scottschober S-C-H-O-B-E-R.com scottschober.com or his company URL www.bvsystems.com. Scott, talk a little bit about how many years ago you wrote Hacked Again. And how was it received once you got it out there into the marketplace?

Scott: Well, first of all, I have to qualify and say I am not a writer which I find kind of interesting and I’ve spoken a lot of book expose, a lot of colleges, business seminars and people are very curious. How in the world did you become a writer? And you know, was it hard it just study this to college and I can honestly say I’m probably one of the worst writers out there, so I had to learn a lot. I mean everything from A to Z in the process of writing a book and what I quickly learned is there is some structure and things to do it, but there’s enough information outthere in the world that will quickly help you. Anybody can do it. The key to a good book is having a good story and I felt I had a good story and I got a lot of help obviously from my brother Craig. He helped really everything I would write I would hand him and then he would edit the chapter and we would go back and forth and to kind of get it refined and get the kinks out. So I always encourage somebody if you have a story to tell and you have somebody else that you could bounce the ideas off and edit and it would really happen.Fortunately for me growing up with my brother, with three years difference. I’m three years senior to him. He kind of is in my head already since we work together, we grew up together. He knows how I think. I’m more of the kind of the math and science mindset. He’s more of the artsy side with video and that’s a nice combination. You can kind of complement one another. So I always encourage people if you’re writing get somebody that kind of balances you out so that your story will come out and the averagereader will enjoy and read it so that the journey took me about two years to write Hacked Again. Again, that’s really a long time. And I guess it’s because I was learning on the way. I wrote a lot more chapters that didn’t get included because you just end up throwing it out. So all the things that I learned from book number one I said if I ever write book number two, I know what to do and what not to do and it really does help. It’s an amazing journey and process writing because you learn more about yourself than anything else. And I talked to a lot of other writers and I encourage people, too. If you have that story or in the back of your mind, you said like to write a book and I was encouraged to do this pick the genre that you’re writing about my case hacking Cyber security and they told me go to the bookstore and look at the books and buy 20 of them that you really that catch your eye. Maybe it’s the cover. Maybe it’s the title. Maybe it’s the subject and read them cover to cover. And I did that and it was painful but in the process you start to develop what writing style you like, what you enjoy and how you can better tell your story. So I kind of am a self-taught author. I feel from my first book and it’s interesting. Some people said they love the first book more than my second book and some people have said just the opposite and they said well you’ve improved a lot as an author in your second book over your first book. So it’s kind of interesting different takes people get out of it and it’s just an enjoyable journey and encourage people to do it.

John: How many years after you wrote Hacked Again did you write Cybersecurity Is Everybody’s Business which I have on my desk here, which I’ve already halfway through which I just think is so practical in such a great book how many years in between those two books?

Scott: Once, I would say I was probably about I think 2016 Hacked Again came out.

John: Right.

Scott: And it was probably 2017 into 2018. So there’s about a year or so to actually write my second book Cybersecurity Is Everybody’s Business. So there was a little bit of brief time in between there trying to figure out. Hey, is there another book here and what was hesitant for mewas is there another story or is there more to tell and I think it was probably the latter that stood out in my mind. Hey, I’m not done here. I told the story but a lot has happened since I finished Hacked Again and that really was the genesis of Cybersecurity Is Everybody’s Business. So it’s a longer read. It goes into a little bit more detail, but it picks up on a lot of topics some additional breaches. Cryptocurrency really kind of made center stage of the dark web and some of the crimes and things that have happened there certainly got a lot more attention. Skimming technologies that really took off in the past few years. So there’s a lot more I wanted to talk about and share with my audience and that’s exactly what I’ve done.

John: So what goes through a little bit, you know, we’re you know, when you listen to the professionals like the FBI and other Federal officials that prosecute and chase the threat actors in this space they say during Covid-19, Scott, cyber crimes are up at least four times. What key elements, what key themes do you want our listeners to keep in mind that they could take away if they read your book but give them a little bit of a taste of what they’ll start learning about if they pick up your book or download it today at Amazon.com or other great platforms.

Scott: Yeah, I think with all my writing and all my presentations, I always try to share with listeners and readers common themes that security and cyber security in particular is really in your control. Most people they seem to get lazy or complacent that deer in the headlight look because they get overwhelmed. I share this even dealing with my father this weekand he was overwhelmed with trying to create and maintain passwords and a lot of people I talk to they’re frustrated just with cyber security in general the important message. I hope to resonate with those that are listening that if you take a little bit of time and learn there are best practices that you can implement that are really common sense and it’s not necessarily a spend of money. Most people associate Cybersecurity. I got to go spend a lot of money and that’s not necessarilythe answer rather you have to change the way you think, the way you do business and that will translate to a more secure cyber perspective. I analyzed even in my book. In fact, both books I touch on it something as simple as something physical security. We think about a document we take credit cards for example, and we jot down the credit cards we get it over the phone, so it’s secure and not in any digital formor anything else. We jot it down on paper. What happens when we’re done processing that order? We actually have to shred that physical piece of paper that has somebody else’s, our customers personal information on it. Again, that’s simple. What do most people do? They buy a 1995 shredder that does very basic shredding. It really is not very secure. It’s more secure than crumbling it up and putting it in the garbage. But instead if you buy a micro crosscut shredder or you’re using a good company that actually provides shredding services that obliterates that so there’s no way somebody could repeat that together. That’s the proper way to handle security. What’s the difference in cost? Maybe it’s $200 to buy a Brothers micro crosscut shredder that’s closer to the equivalent of what NSA might do to shred a document. Then the $20 shredder that’s almost a giveaway. So sometimes it’s a little bit more money to spend but its more common sense.The way you implement security that’s what’s important and that it’s done throughout your culture in your company. It’s not just the Chief Information Security Officer or the President. I always say it’s from the janitor on up to the CEO. Everybody has to understand there is a culture that needs to be understood and maintained to keep the entire company secure and once you start to learn those best practices, everybody can implement them and again, it doesn’t have to always hit the wall, it’s not a big expense to implement these things most of it is there. Another good example two factor authentication, role used to logging on to a bank or a secure site. Yeah, we check. Is there a lock symbol? Is it HTTPS for secure? Those are the basics important. But if we’re going to check our 401k or a stock portfolio or check our bank account, whatever the case may be. Are we using two-factor authentication? Most of the time it’s there, it’s free, it’s available. But we need to make a balanced decision between security and convenience. Most people will opt for convenience over security every time. We have to think security. We opted for it’s going extra 10 seconds to do this 2 factor authentication, but I’m a hundred times more secure. Boom. That’s the way they go. And that’s what I try to share with people. Empower them to take a little bit extra time and think how this will save them from going down the path that I went with Federal investigations and documentation and phone calls and paperwork. It’s a disruptor from you’re in if you’re a consumer, but it’s even bigger disruptor if you’re trying to run a business and you’re distracted by all the fallout after a breach. It’s a mess.

John: You know, Scott the name of the book is great, Cybersecurity Is Everybody’s Business and for our listeners out there for the first, you know, Scott was kind enough to share some of his books with us and for our first six listeners that write to us and tell us why you want to read this book? We’re going to share a copy. It’s autographed as well from Scott to our great listeners. It’s really for all of you. And you could download it as well on your Kindle or your iPad or something as if you’d like to do that and get access to it immediately today when you’re listening to this podcast, but Scott the book is for not only someone at a big corporation. Like you said, it’s everybody’s business, but it’s also for the guy or woman who owns a dry cleaner and also for a mom or dad who’s running a household which has become an ecosystem of itself in terms of money and capital and commerce going through it. It’s for just someone who’s running a household as well. Not just the business. Is that correct?

Scott: Yeah, you’re absolutely right. In fact, it couldn’t be ever more appropriate right now. And we look at a third of America the workforce is working from home with this disaster with Covid-19, so now suddenly they’re trying to juggle things at home, but maybe they’re using their personal laptop or desktop computer, their iPad their smartphone, but they’re still doing business. There are still doing things from their remote office. So even more so do they need to be careful and take their time whether it’s password management, whether it’s two factor authentication, whether it’s caution on social media and watching their digital footprint. All of these things that I talked about are appropriate not just for the office but for somebody at home if they have their home office that they can do these best practices and I go into a lot of things about some of the scams and a lot about credit cards because that’s a huge area where there’s cyber crime taking advantage of us be it online or purchasing even sharing a credit card or over the phone but the common best practices and cautions that we need to employ if we areusing our credit card from home or the office.

John: Fishing and spearfishing, is that still one of the major ways people are falling for these threat actors and cyber criminals?

Scott: Yeah. Absolutely. You make a great point John. I think especially again reverting back to this Covid-19 cyber criminals are great at adapting they change their game often and it’s based upon what’s going to work on their advantage when somebody is fearful, when somebody’s distracted, that’s when they move in and that’s exactly what’s happening. They’re using effective phishing schemes. And in some cases they’re more targeted depending upon what they’re trying to accomplish where they’re selling, you know face mask supposedly, ventilator related things, the miracle medicine, all these different things tied around Covid, which makes people want to react and click because they say wow I need to know where I’m going to get tested locally here to see if I’ve got Coronavirus. Click here to set up an appointment just provide this basic information. Next thing you knew what know what are you doing? You’re divulging personal information, but your mind is focused on what if I have this, what if I pass this on to someone, what if my kids get this, how am I going to go back to work? So you’re distracted over here and that’s a very effective tactics. So immediately I always tell people stop. Don’t be so quick to click on email attachments. You’re better off always double checking it. Make a quick phone call. Grew directly go to the website that claims they’re doing this or that or promising. Enter that URL and so you can actually verify for yourself that it’s truthful. So taking a little bit extra time and steps before you’re too prone to click on things saves a ton and ton of embarrassment or financial ruin or other problems. And there’s a lot of great companies out there that can assist with it. You can do it yourself. If you’re hesitant, you have a company they’re just companies like no before and many others that offer security awareness training and that is important if you get it within the culture as I talked about earlier to make sure everybody understands it and understands the risks and implications if they’re the one that clicks on that specific attachment and of course ransomware. Every the last few years, I’ve been talking about ransomware to my eyes are bleeding. It keeps advancing. It’s more challenging and it’s becoming more lucrative and more targeted toward the medical community hospital so they could shut down any or lockup patients records demanding that ransom in bitcoin, which is certainly anonymous digital currency. So it’s hard to trace down these hackers and catch them. So it’s really important. Be careful what you’re clicking on because really the malware that’s embedded in a lot of these phishing attacks is a different strains of ransomware that keeps evolving and improving so it’s harder and harder to discover and prevent it from happening.

John: You know Scott, we’ve seen in our lifetime the growth and the proliferation of the internet of things. So ten years ago, we didn’t have a nest in our home a ring at our front door and Alexa on our nightstand whatever they’re called the Alexa tools or the Google tools that could just hear voice commanded. Talk a little bit about the inter connectivity of our homesin our businesses now with all these great tools that are designed to make our lives better in some places like ring safer more comfortable. What risks though come along with the internet of things and all these new gadgets that were all enjoying but also could put us at greater peril?

Scott: Yeah, you make a fabulous point and this is one thing that I have talked about extensively and even in my books it’s intertwined in there. IoT, the Internet of things is kind of a phenomena that has come about that we’ve all adopted whether we like it or not. And I too am guilty of this. In fact a couple years ago, I was at I think was the RSA show and somebody presented a point that within a few years you will have 50 IoT devices in your home. Do you realize that? And I kind of laughed, I said that’s ridiculous. And then one day, I sat there in counters I said geesh they were dead on.That’s about what I have in one of my homes. And to your point yet, what is it? It’s exactly that. I mean, I’ve got no wise wireless cameras in the nest, in the ring and this and that you go down the list and you start to realize everything from your TV to whatever is connected into the internet. The problem is when these things were designed a number of years ago and even more recent, cost was the driving factorbecause it’s consumer rich people want it high volume manufacturing. To add security to it add some dollars to the cost and they never want to do that. So instead they said well, well, we’ll figure it out later if it’s a problem and that’s exactly what’s happened. Security wasn’t baked in at the beginning and now we’re starting to pay for it. When you have tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of unsecured insecure cameras out there that are IP based that has a specific address that could be from the other side of the world. A hacker and their easy chair can address that and turn it on without somebody knowing about it. That’s a real problem and when they’re not firmware upgradeable remotely. Guess what the consumer is not going to send it back. It’s installed. They climb the ladder. They mounted it whatever the case may be. They’re going to live with it until they cut the cord and rip it out and put something else in so. The mindset for Internet of Things device is really has to change and focus on encryption, focus on the ability to upgrade the specific devices and also the ability to monitor those things, we’ve developed here at my company Berkeley Varitronic systems tools that actually are used so you can sniff out and hunt down IoT threats that are brought into your environment, in your office, in your home and your business that you don’t even know about. The employee that brings in or the hacker that sneaks in and plugs in rogue access point that you don’t even know about.That connects into your neck computer network, and now they could be siphoning personal information off their compromised IP or anything else. I mean that’s very powerful these days and it’s very real. So it’s important that companies are very cautious but even consumers that they’re not too quick and I always tell people when I’m presenting, do you really need to plug that device in? Stop and think about it first and ask yourself some basic questions. What are you getting out of this device? What are you giving away in the terms of data privacy? That’s important for us to ask those questions.

John: You know, we’re living in this world Scott and for our listeners who just joined us where we got Scotch Schober on with us. He’s one of the top cyber security experts in the world. He has two books out right now Hacked Again,and Cybersecurity Is Everybody’s Business. I would read those books if I were you, whether you’re just a homeowner running your household or business owner running a big corporation or small business in a local community. These books are really great stuff and also to find Scott and maybe even hire him to work with you. You can go to www.scottschober.com or www.bvsystems.com. Scott, we’re living in a world where people are also excited about new transportation opportunities. The growth of the electric car and of course, Tesla and soon-to-be driverless vehicles, is it wrong for me to say that the electric cars basically become a computer on wheels? And if so, what does that mean to our cyber risks as both owners or lessees of these vehicles and also passengers in these vehicles?

Scott: I kind of knew it this way. In fact, there’s a chapter in Cyber Security Is Everybody’s Business. I think I call it Planes, Trains, and Automobiles and I talk just about that. My fear of where we are and where we’re going in the world of transportation and to your point just think about vehicles if anybody walks into a car dealership today and they purchase a vehicle be at a Tesla, Mercedes doesn’t matter what it is.High and low and guess what every single vehicle of the 50-plus manufacturers in the world have embedded 4G LTE cellular modems in there. Whether or not you subscribe to a service there or not there in your vehicle. What does that mean? That means there is wireless connectivity through the basic through all the the cellular networks that are out there around the globe. So what’s tied with that obviously GPS. So technically, can we be tracked? Sure. Can notification be pushed to our car where information pulled out such as innocent things like hey your car is ready for a service or an oil change? Yeah, absolutely. But more nefarious things could be done to buy a hacker and that’s been proven out by many researchers that have shown that hey they can basically affect the ecu’s inside the car electronic control units in pushing nation. That’s scary when it can affect our lives. Were take ransom on a vehicle just like ransomware attacks. That’s the future take over the car. That’s very scary and a real thing that we need to be cautious about.

John: I also read a story and I don’t know where wasn’t recent that was about 18 months ago, where a hacker did the same thing, excuse me, on a commercial plane.

Scott: Yeah, that’s Chris Roberts actually. He was a guest. I interviewed him on my segment what keeps you up at night and what he did there which was kind of interesting. On a flight, he actually tied into the infotainment center plugged in and played some shenanigans I guess you could say and he revved up one engines which caused the plane to tilt and he was greeted when the plane landed by the FAA and banned from flying for a while and I think he lost his job. It was a big mess, but he’s since moved on and I think learned from his debacle let’s say. What was the show us- It shows us how vulnerable-

John: Right.

Scott: When you’re talking about billion dollar companies, Boeing’s and others are developing some pretty advanced avionics and the fact that you could hack in through the infotainment center and it runs parallel to some of the avionics in the security where there were some basic open flaws that have since I believe been corrected throughout the flying community. So people shouldn’t be scared, but they should be concerned. It really researchers open up that conversation. So in my opinion he actually did a good thing. He prevented a real hacker from causing a major take down which is what we really want to do. We want to test things properly and get the vulnerabilities taken out.

John: His shenanigans prevented hopefully a tragedy.

Scott: Exactly. Yeah. Well said.

John: Let’s go back to what you just mentioned though, because you were kind enough to include me on a recent episode of what keeps you up at night, but why did you launch that podcast and how’s it been going? And share with our listeners a couple of the scariest stories you’ve heard since you’ve been hosting that.

Scott: Well, I tell you what, it’s a nice diverse group of business owners. All that how cyber security kind of touches their lives and I think I constantly have fears and I’m dreaming up things. I try to get into the mind of a hacker and I say to myself if I was going to try to do this. Here’s what I would do and to be honest when I was younger, I was addicted to games. My father worked for a number of years at [inaudible] he was the vice president of the research lab, so I grew up in my brother grew up surrounded by games. And at one point we got to the point where we were actually hacking games going on bulletin board systems before the internet as we know it for those old-timers out there and we would get on and we would hack passwords get onto the different levels and we’ll be pirating games and we did this we didn’t have any monetary gain. So I wasn’t I’m trying to justify it wasn’t a thief at that time. However, it was a lot of fun and it was one ofthose ego boosters who could collect more games than anyone else on the world and we did this for years and it was kind of exciting I think. So, I’ve always dreamed up and done things maybe from a hacker side but stayed on this side of the line, which is more of maybe a white hacker than a true black hat and getting in trouble getting caught and stealing things and I think that always kind of in the back of my mind said, you know what I’ve seen a lot of podcasts video audio. I enjoy them. I follow them I saidIf I’m going to do something I want to get into someone else’s mind and get a sense. What is their fear? What really does keep them up at night? So as I started to talk about that with my brother Craig, we said Jesus what if we just call it that and we keep it short and simple and will have a segment that basically has one question and we have no clue what the answer is and we’re going to learn from them and hopefully share with everyone else and that was kind of the genesis of the segment and we’ve done it now for a little more than two years. And had some great guests on there as you meant Chris Roberts. He was a lot of fun. He’s got his purple dyed beard when he came on and his kind of packing den and shared some interesting stories. I had the guy that actually inspired the movie War Games if you remember him.

John: Sure.

Scott: He came on and he actually came on from a secret spot on the other side of the world that’s undisclosed because he’s being hunted down by other people. So we did an episode with him, which was a lot of fun. A lot of people shared similar to your question about IoT. That’s a huge fear by many of my listeners. A lot of researchers have a lot of problems with deep fakes that keeps coming up concern about artificial intelligence. Where were that’s going and how that’s going to come into play in the hackers hand. So very diverse subjects that all crisscrossed the world of Cyber security, but I think it really invokes a lot of fear and that to me is good because it starts the conversation and hopefullysome of our viewers take that and say hey, here’s some stuff that I got a design or develop to counter what these cyber criminals are doing because it’s only going to get worse and I think we’re going to lose if we don’t work together and communicate and share where we are now, but where the future is going to be in the world of Cyber security.

John: Right? I agree, before we go on to what you’re cooking up for the end of the year your next book. Can you talk a little bit about the issue of Cyber Insurance? Where- Is it something that our listeners should buy to protect their businesses to protect themselves, or is it a little bit over hyped? Talk about the realities versus the the promises with Cyber Insurance.

Scott: Yeah. It’s a top very topical I think and it’s a question. I think almost daily. I talk about Cyber insurance whereas it used to be something I would talk about every few months. So I think it’s on a lot of people’s minds especially small business owners because larger companies they have cyber security insurance and they usually can afford it because it’s really about weighing the risks and offsetting those a bit smaller businesses is a little bit more challenging because they’re run mean and lean often. They’re not so quick to spend a buck and they’re a little more hesitant for most business owners that I talk to. I know I was that way myself go back post more than five years ago. We did not have cyber security insurance. After being hacked and hacked again, we do have cyber security insurance and I’ll tell you why because it’s now become in a sense like my second book. It’s become everybody’s business it now affects everyone and hence. It allows you to look at whatever information you have. What’s your secret sauce? What personal information do you have inside of your business that you need to protect? It could be employee records Social Security numbers, credit card information, passwords, whatever it is. Intellectual property know how software doesn’t matter. That’s all very valuable. So having some Cyber security Insurance protects you but it does not actually in a backwards way. I don’t focus as much as hey out if I am compromised or say if and when I’m compromised more importantly it gives you a discipline set of rules and regulations that you need to implement within a company and within a culture. So you think about cyber security and most good cyber security policies comes with some level of education. Just like if you’re familiar anybody that’s listening, PCI compliance. It’s I kind of call it a checklist that you got to go down. If you’re going to process credit cards to make sure you know, do you do this? Do you shred documents? Most people say yes, yes,yes, yes. If they’re in a meeting or over the phone. Why? Because they look like an idiot if they’re not properly complying to this but it’s a bit self-disciplined. You don’t want to lie, but you don’t want to you know confuse people and say that we’re really not secure. I think with Cyber security Insurance you need to take it to the next level and actually implement the policies and procedures for handling personal information and a good cyber insurance company and an agent is going to come in and make sure that you’re actually doing it and educate the staff to make sure that they’re properly doing it and I think that kind of goes hand in hand. Don’t look at it as if I buy this policy for a million dollars of coverage. That’s it. I’m done. I don’t have to worry about passwords. I don’t have to worry about factor authentication. And no that’s not the case. In fact, you need to do even more once you sign on the dotted line and you pay a premium. Why? Because if and when you are compromised in breach you’re going to want to pick up the phone 24/7 and have a person at the other end and say hey John Smith, I think I’m a victim of ransomware. What do I do? They’re demanding $50,000 in the equivalent of Bitcoin. They’re going to tell you right there stop and they’re going to move in and see if they have the decryption keys. So they can unlock that and put you back in business. They could tell you hey, remember that back up I told you have to do every week? Let’s revert you to that. They’re going to have some procedural steps. They’re going to step inand say hey Scott, guess what? We’re going to go in and we’re going to negotiate this you’re going to have to pay the ransom the policy will cover but instead of paying fifty thousand we’re going to negotiate it down to the equivalent Bitcoins for $15,000 and settle it. Get that decryption get you back in business. So a lot of it is reducing the risk getting an expert that’s going to hand hold you through the process so you’re not bumbling and we’ve got example after example of people that probably did it wrong and I talked about that the target breach and the Sony breach and Home Depot, Anthem, you know breach after breach things that will done.

John: Marriott.

Scott: Yahoo. Yahoo! Yahoo! Happened three times, right?

John: Right. Unbelievable.

Scott: Billions of people were affected. So do we learn things post breach from these large companies that we can now implement in our small businesses even Fortune 500 companies can look at those examples to say hey, we got to do some things here to improve our cyber security posture. And yes, part of that is having good coverage cyber security coverage understanding what it does cover and what it doesn’t cover. That’s very important.

John: Now, you know, obviously because you’re not doing enough hosting what keeps you up at night, having written Hacked Again, having written the Cybersecurity Is Everybody’s Business, and running BV systems.com with is PV systems with your brother and your father. You’re now writing and about to come out with a third book, which we’re going to have you back on the show and to when that book comes out to talk about it, but give our listeners a preview on the next book coming in. Why you wrote this one?

Scott: Yeah, absolutely. My continual frustration in the world of cyber security is analyzing who is targeted and why and one standout that I keep hearing again and again and again, and I lived through it the personal experience of my grandfather and he had several attacks. And when I say cyber attacks the more of what I call a scam through the phone that he was targeted and then also credit card fraud and acouple other things that he dealt with and tried to assist them through that. It pains me deeply to see how cyber criminals really just don’t care about their victim. They really don’t care. They just want one thing they want the money. So it’s kind of a crime that they never see the person and I always related to somebody that robs a bank. The old days they take a gun. They got to get away car. They put a mask on. They go into a bank. They hold up a gun and say give me all your money. They see the victim. That’s not the case in the world of cyber security. Somebody’s at some remote disconnected keyboard and they never see the pain exactly that their victim gets inflicted with and what’s happened is they’ve targeted the elderly they literally and I share the story in my third book and then the book is titled Senior Cyber and I actually dedicate it to my grandfather. He is- he was 99 years old just shy about a month of his hundredth birthday when he passedaway recently and it’s an interesting I try to take people through and give them some empowerment if they are elderly so they’re not feeling like they’re hopeless and they can’t get on the computer and they can’t use a smartphone and they can’t use the internet because of fear or fear of scams. So hopefully it’s educating the senior. So they’re comfortable enough to survive in this economy that were in in this life where you’re forced to use technology. So a lot of it- It’s a combination of building them up. I hope empowering them giving them education but more on a simple path without a deep tech dive and as I come across the term and Senior cyber, that’s unfamiliar. I literally will define it and then I will try to relate it to something that perhaps 50 years ago or decades back that they could relate to. So that way it’s draws a corollary every time they say Iremember when I got my first phone in the house or my first TV on the block that was new hot technology. Just like now I go on the internet and it’s something so different. So you didn’t have to be scared back then. You got used to it. Just like now you can get used to it, but you still need to take some basic precautions. So I try to balance that throughout so it’s a much light to read. It’s also a much larger font because as I get older. I’m now 50/50 in my eyesight starting to go so I made the font a little bit bigger. Trying to think about the senior to make it easier for them to relate to it. Read it. Enjoy it and more importantly share the information and the tips throughout the book so they could help others that are maybe thinking about getting a computer or going on the Internet or getting a smartphone and not being so afraid.

John: I love it. And when does that book come out?

Scott: It’s going to be later this year. So hopefully fourth quarter this year. It’s actually it’s been written. I finished writing it and it’s again co-authored by my brother because that worked so successfully in the second book. So now we’re going through the process of getting it published and we are self-published. So it’ll be available hopefully very soon on Amazon and all the popular book stores and online as well.

John: That’s awesome. And that’s going to give us a great excuse to have you back.

Scott: Yeah. I look forward to it.

John: Yeah, and before we sign off for today any final thoughts you want to share with our listeners?

Scott: I think I just want to again and I mentioned it before but really emphasize to people when you hear cyber security, don’t turn that switch in your mind and say oh that’s techie or that’s this or that, it truly is now everybody’s business and it is something that we have to embrace, learn about and make it part of our daily lives, even though we don’t like it we might liken it, too.Unfortunately, I hate to bring up this analogy with this virus we’re learning how to survive wearing a mask. We’re learning about social distancing. We’re learning about different type of hygiene with hand sanitizer and think that may be the new norm going forward and we will survive through it if we make adjustments just like cyber security. Once we learn about it, we will learn how to make adjustments so we can stay safe so we can still use our computers, our smart phones, the internet, wireless devices, IoT, I love technology. I embrace it. I encourage people to do it, but with caution don’t be afraid of it. But use caution to make sure that you’re doing it as secure as you can and into implementing best practices. So you’re not the next victim that gets hacked.

John: I love it, Scott and I can’t wait to have you back on. There’s so many questions I didn’t get to today that I want to ask you about GDPR and the new privacy laws and states and of course, we’ll have you back to then talk about your new book Senior Cyber. For our listeners out there that want to reach Scott or read what he’s doing or see what he’s up to. Please go watch his podcast what keeps you up at night. Also you could go to www.scottschober.com or www.bvsystems.com. If cyber security is on your mind and you’re worried about your security or your privacy or all your as it’s known in the industry your crown jewelsand your money, you should read Cybersecurity Is Everybody’s Business. It’s everybody’s booked for sure. I’ve read half of it already and I’ve learned more in that half of book than I learned in reading 10 other books on the subject. Scott, you’re making a great impact. You’re making the world a better and safer place. Thank you for joining us today on the Impact podcast.

Scott: Thank you, John and to all those listeners stay safe.

John Shegerian: Welcome to another edition of the Impact podcast. I am John Shegerian and it is an honor and privilege to have my great friend with us today, Dr. Armen Orujyan. Welcome to Impact, Armen.

Dr. Armen Orujyan: Thank you John. Thanks for having me on your show. This is a great privilege to be having this conversation with you through eleven time zones away. It’s coming evening time for me, morning time for you. Thanks for having me again, and I am hopeful that we can keep this entertaining for your audience.

John: Yes, I am sure we’ll be because you are just a fascinating human being and for my audience members out there, Armen is not only a long time friend that I have worked with for many, many, many years. But this is our first show that we are doing from California and Armenia. Armen happens to be in Yerevan Armenia. And we’re so excited to have him coming to us from Armenia and making time on during one of his evenings over there. Armen, before we get talking about the current state of affairs in Armenia and what it is going on and how you created the Fast Foundation. I want to go back. You and I met years ago, when you were the founder and chairman of the Ethical Corporation. Talk a little bit about your entire journey, where you grew up, how you came to do so much good, do so much make so much impact in all the communities you served in your lifetime. And I have known you a long time and then we will get to the, of course the Fast Foundation. Share your journey a little bit, please.

Armen: John. I am just really, really truly so humbled by your presentation of what I have done and what we are doing now. I was born in Armenia and I spent first fifteen years of my life here in Armenia until my parents decided to migrate to the United States in late 1989. So it’s some over thirty years ago. Back then Armenia was still part of the Soviet Republics. And I came to the United States, having brought up in a very different type of regime under going to communist party school. So everything about education, about discipline and then coming to United States, going to Los Angeles, going to Hollywood High School, which was very, very different type of an experience to say the least. But look what the opportunities that were presented in the United States where far from having here. And Soviet Armenia at that time, it was you were on a conveyor belt if they decided you’re going to be X, you were going to be that individual no matter what you decide for yourself. But then coming to United States and having all these opportunities, I had to work for a living because we didn’t have money when we landed in the United States. Three hundred and sixty dollars for four people. So that wasn’t a lot of money. We started working. My first job was at Sears. Garnish, watering plants. Still love plants and will speak about this at some later point. Yes, so I was watering plants that was incredible. And then my first entrepreneurial engagement was at the age of seventeen. But just to fast forward, High school then College didn’t work out the first time around. I was making money so I thought it’s like “Who needs school?”, but then went back the age of twenty three because there was some kind of an emptiness in you. You feel at some point that it is missing. So once you went back to college and went all the way to get my PhD. So I started that but you mentioned that. But I started at 1999 I was still in college then. It was an interesting journey with Afco. We started as almost a platform for young people for them that have had challenges, the same challenges that I had when I landed in United States. For us to help them to overcome those whether its financial, whether its network, whether its intellectual Capital, so we had training courses on how to become an entrepreneur. But also major innovation forums where you attended one at the UN headquarters and back in mid-2000 on environment, I recall that was a phenomenal event and it was great knowing you, getting to know you then, but you saw firsthand what we were doing with the young people. Hundreds of them every Innovation Forum at the UN headquarters was four hundred plus people from over a hundred countries.

John: Right.

Armen: And we did that very quickly, getting to that space. Within twenty four months or so we went from a local engagement here in LA to a global entrepreneurial platform. But one thing led to another. We had many different types of programs in Europe, in Africa throughout the United States, but then in some three years ago or four years ago I had one of our fellow Armenians, very prominent and phenomenal, Ruben Vardanyan who launched Aurora Humanitarian Initiative to celebrate incredible people around the world that sacrifice their likes, their everything that they have for things they stand for and they give them a million point one. I think they give them about one hundred thousand dollars in cash plus million dollars to give to other organizations that they find worthy in any scenario. So Ruben reached out to me in 2016, wanted to meet up and talk about some of the things that they are thinking to do in Armenia, including science and technology. So that was interesting. We met up in late 2016. And he invited me over to come to Armenia and I came back here in 2017. It was my first time in a decade. I have not been in the country for a long time and the rest is history. Now, I am here for the past nearly three years.

John: Before we get talking and for our listeners who just tuned in. We have got my good friend on with us today Armen Orujyan–Dr. Armen Orujyan. He is the founding CEO of the Fast Foundation, which is doing just incredible work in Armenia and around the world. And to find him there, you could go to www.fast.foundation, www.fast.foundation. Before we get talking about what your initiatives are at fast and who else is behind it? Can you go back to the issue of entrepreneurship? Because you are such a proponent and you have made such a huge impact on so many young people’s lives. If I am not mistaken, your network that you created with a Afco, basically touched at least six hundred universities through eighty countries. And over ten thousand young people got incubated and impacted through Afco Corporation. What do you see going on right now, since you are literally one of the leading people when with regards to entrepreneurial innovation and incubation. What’s going on right now in the world with entrepreneurship? Is it on the rise? Is it on the fall? Where do you see it right now?

Armen: Well, you know given all the current affairs, right? The realities such, the United States, we have over twenty five million people that lost their jobs the last six weeks and it’s incredible since the recession in 2008. In that decade from 2010 to 2020, we had gained approximately sixteen million jobs. In a decade, we had gotten sixteen million jobs and in four weeks, we lost twenty one million jobs. I mean imagine that, right? I mean it is a shock to the system. And it is not only in the United States. I view what’s happening in the United States and in Europe in the western world as a massive earthquake and then but earthquake not inland earthquake in the middle of an ocean or so. And every earthquake then if it happens in the ocean, it leads to a major tsunami. And I think that’s what’s going to happen. I think there is going to be major tsunami that we do not feel just yet, right? Because losing twenty five million people who do not work, that means they are not going to consume the same ways. So they are going to have to change their habits. And in the second quarter I think the numbers of major companies will demonstrate the contraction that happens in the economy, which means it is going to lead to Tsunami. And I think the first hit is that it’s going to be probably a place like China. And the reason why because China makes all the products or consumption–makes the consumption possible through its workforce. So if it’s the first tsunami is going to come from Europe and United States to a place like China and then I’m curious how far or how deep it is going to travel and how the rest of the world is going to be impacted. And the reason I came to this when you asked me about entrepreneurship, there is two types, there is a lot but there is two major types. There is one opportunity and then necessity entrepreneurship. Those opportunities generally more successful and necessity something that you’ll have to do because you have no other ways or no other means and there is going to be a lot of people that are going to either find opportunities, new opportunities in this new world. Or they are going to have no other choice but to turn to entrepreneurship because there are no jobs. So it gives a lot of very interesting new opportunities to people not only in the United States, but in around the world. And the difference between I want to say now in to 2020 versus 2008, the types of tools that are available, types of information that is available, are far more sophisticated and far more conducive to producing entrepreneurs and better entrepreneurs than it would have been possible in 2008. The online platforms–I mean look what happened right, John? And I think you probably felt it yourself. My entire team not only mine naturally, I mean places like Google’s, Facebook’s and Twitter’s, but also my team, we send them home. We say, “Go home and work from home.” And then you quickly learn these people are far more productive when they are working from home than they were in the office space. But not up until that moment we would value that. We would say, it is like “What is?” If you go home, you are not going to work. It is not going to be the same” but we have been massively wrong.

I think the whole world was which means many of these people can find new opportunities and they don’t have to be in specific places. They could be just sitting at home. This is the garage that Google was created. This is the room that Facebook was created. It’s in every person’s bedroom now. And there is so much information on how to become an entrepreneur. So I want to say it is a long-winded answer to your question. I think entrepreneurship is going to be at a rise.

John: That’s correct.

Armen: There is going to be so much more opportunities. And I think there is going to be a lot more funding, that always going to be directed towards entrepreneurs. Instead of saving big corporations and you see it now. I think the mistakes people made or the government’s made in 2008. Some of them are being repeated naturally. It’s normal but there are also many different ways. You see how they are saving small businesses by giving this no interest loans and then if you save your employees, then you don’t have to repay those loans. That was not available in 2008 or the fact that they are giving families, up to one thousand dollars. That was not available in 2008. It was all about saving banks and this and that. But now they are saving small businesses and they are saving people. Right now, you can take that one thousand dollars and do something with it. Start a new company or so.

John: That is so interesting and you are right. I really believe you are so right. Working from home is going to be a trend that is here to stay. And as you said in the last twelve years technology has really democratized the opportunity to become part of the technological revolution. I think you are so spot-on. Let us talk a little bit about the important work. For our listeners out there I was so honored to go to you on last fall in October and see Armand’s great work up front with the Fast Foundation. Go to numerous events, meet so many of his supporters and board members and other great people that he has surrounded himself with. Armenia, it’s just who is who. And it was literally, I am still enjoying the halo effect of being with you and seeing the world that you work in over there. For our listeners out there, please share little bit about now. Ruben got behind, you who else got behind you to create this amazing organization. And what are your current goals for Fast?

Armen: Yes, I want to say, well first I got behind Ruben. Ruben had the idea of doing something of this nature in Armenia and then he is the one who came to LA talk to me and then I said this is a great, great, great thing to do in Armenia and I’ll come and join you. I will structure this for the team that we put together. It is Ruben, we have Arturo and a few other people, but another very interesting person that I would want to mention is the other co-founder is Noubar Afeyan from Boston and many people either know him or known one of his companies that is founded Moderna Therapeutics. Moderna is a phenomenal entity to forefront of what’s happening with Coronavirus and Covid-19 working on creation of a vaccine. Moderna got a unique technology. It is one of the leading biotech companies that is working on experimental vaccine against the virus. And its technologies is pretty phenomenal. It synthesizes something called messenger RNA or MRNA to essentially prompt human body to make its own medicine. I mentioned this when I was having a discussion with the president of Armenia few weeks ago on one of our webinars that if we were to talk about anything of that nature three months ago, point about creating or having to deal with messenger RNA prompting a human body to make its own medicine. That would have been considered as a fantasy, a discussion only people in white robes and sealed lab should be speaking about. But now everyone, you and I, everyone in the world, we are eagerly waiting to hear more news about solutions of this nature. And we are fortunate to have one of our own on the front lines of scientific discovery and this eagerness of governments to work with the private sectors in United States has displayed by investing about half billion dollars into Moderna at least in near terms also shows appreciation for what entities like Moderna but also what entities like Fast focusing on Science and Technology are doing. And I think that one particular change is very important because if you look at how the world functions, right? So we invest two percent or three percent or not invest but spent on defense and military in every country. In the United States that is nearly eight hundred billion dollars annually. But when it comes to putting money in scientific discovery or in true wellness of people, very, very little money being spent, up to this moment, even when we talk about healthcare be it in United States or anywhere. It is very reactive, right? You spend money on treating illnesses. You are not spending money on wellness of people. To do things proactively for you not to get a person to condition when you need to worry about health care. Even if you look at everything that is happening, with coronavirus, we are speaking about everything reactive. This is happened, now, we need to come and fix it.

John: Right.

Armen: If we were to spend the right amount of money, they are putting in the right places and had preventive mechanisms in place. We would have a very different type of a conversation. We would have said, “Look this where going to happen and we stopped it.” But we are far from having a conversation of that nature. And I am very fortunate that here in Armenia were working this foundation. When the foundation was founded to drive scientific discovery and technological innovations in Armenia and beyond. And we have several teams here that does work on Bio-Technology Solutions on artificial intelligence machine learning on Robotics and Advanced Materials. These are technologies that are going to lead humanity forward. And we are very excited to be at the forefront of it ourselves.

John: Two things that strikes me, Armen. First of all, it has been said over and over again that a person is really a sum of the five or six people they surround themselves with. They take on their qualities. They absorb their information and it is really who you surround yourself with. And when I was in Armenia and you literally gave me a front-row seat to listen to Ruben talk, to Dr. Afeyan talk, I was blown away and they were dozens of others that I met with you, and that you have surrounded yourself with. These are not just some of the most interesting scientists and entrepreneurs just in Armenia. These are some of the most important business people in the world. These people have succeeded around the world. They just happen to be Armenian or have Armenian interest and are now giving back through your great organization in Armenia. It is arguable that Dr. Afeyan could be the next Jonas Salk of the world. With one of the greatest tragic pandemics that have ever happened in modern times with a breakthrough drug. And Ruben could be doing fifty other things than what he is doing right now. But you have surrounded yourself with some of the most interesting and fascinating and accomplished human beings I have ever seen as an organization. Tell me a little bit of two things. What is it like working with these folks every day for you? Because great people with huge accomplishments are always challenging those around them. And then what was their why? Why did they choose to do this at this point in their lives? When they could be off on their yachts in the Mediterranean and never do any of this kind of very important and critical work.

Armen: It’s fulfillment of different nature. Right? Look. I am very fortunate to have these people in my life. It’s really a different type of an experience being surrounded with people with so much experience as you said, leading or being in the in the middle of affairs that impact every human being on the planet. We did not even speak about Lord Ara Darzi, was also part of our world from the United Kingdom who is also on the forefront of what’s taking place in the space of bio medicine.

John: I was mesmerized when he was speaking. I have to tell you, Armen. Not many people mesmerize me. I was mesmerized. I left him off the list in your so right to include him. He is truly–not only a brilliant man, but he speaks so clearly, speaks so clearly.

Armen: Yes, I mean he is the type of a surgeon he is and where he is specializing in minimally invasive robot-assisted surgery. He has pioneered so many new technologies. He is just a phenomenal human being. So being around these people, be it Lord Darzi, Noubar Afeyan, Ruben Vardanyan, few others, and [inaudible], other co-founders Arturo [inaudible] and [inaudible]. On our board, we have the president of the country or [inaudible] who happens to be a physicist himself. You know that also, so phenomenal. And learning from these people and getting their Vibes. And as you said, watching them not spending–not blowing their money on buying yachts, but continuously doing philanthropic engagements for betterment of societies.

Someone like Ruben Vardanyan has spent as almost his entire fortune and he has committed his entire fortune on doing philanthropic work. And him and his team has spent nearly close to a billion dollars in Armenia doing phenomenal work here. It’s really educational. I mean talking to them and what inspires them, right? [crosstalk] What inspires…

John: And you have done this over and over. I’ve seen this with you, Armen. This is a common theme in your life. There is never a time that I have been with you that you haven’t you surrounded yourself with some of the best and the brightest. Before the Fast Foundation back at Afco and everything you have done. So this is a theme. So obviously, they are attracted to you and you are attracted to them, which is just beyond phenomenal because I see that you are all a fascinating group of servant leaders. You are all doing so much impactful work. So when you are with them, for our audience, what’s their “Why?”. Do they have a similar or they’re similar themes as to their “Why” or is it very personal for them because they’re Armenian or just a philanthropic DNA that runs through their veins or a little bit of both?

Armen: All right. I think it is the depth of the individual, right? I mean these people are extremely deep. Some of it is personal, right? All of us and I think you too John, we all have that weak spot for Armenia because we are all grandchildren of genocide survivors. And there is a reason why you were born in the United States. Noubar Afeyan was born in Lebanon and my father was born in Lebanon. And Ruben’s family was not originally from Armenia only because we were dispersed all around the world. We survived. Our ancestors helped us come to this world and to some degree we are indebted to them but also to the world. I mean there are a lot of societies, a lot of communities that help Armenians back during the genocide. I mean so you had a group of perpetrators, you had Ottoman Turks that were committing the genocide. But then you had groups, you had United States, you had Germans, you have French, you had English. Communities that also saved Armenian lives, helped Armenian lives. Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, these are communities that embraced Armenians, allowed Armenians to prosper. And now, many of us are giving back. Giving back to our ancestors for the jobs that they have done. We give back in Armenia, but we give back to the world, John. You have been incredible philanthropist yourself for Armenian matters, but also beyond, how much time you would spend on doing philanthropic work and the same thing with our partners. What Ruben and Noubar are doing, what Ara Darzi is doing, it kind of becomes part of your DNA . I mean what I have been doing for twenty years of my life being in Armenian and before that, I was doing a lot of work in Africa, it has nothing to do with Armenians. But we are kind of indebted to people that gave us opportunities, gave us who we have become, helped us become, who shaped us to become…

John: Well, I am going to tell you this, coming to Armenia and being with you changed my life. And my children were so excited about me being there with you. They had just come back and they are going to be going back and they want actually as I’ve shared with you, they want us to set up a Shegerian residence there and be coming back a numerous times and spending part of our adult lives there and especially for them and in the future. Armen for our listeners out there, we’ve got my good friend with us today. Dr. Armen Orujyan. He’s called in live from Armenia. He is my first and one of my most important friends that I’ve ever had in my life and made a huge impact on me and the greater community. And he is now the founding CEO of the Fast Foundation. To find Armen and all of his partners and his great work and their great work over there and around the world. You could go to www.fast.foundation, www.fast.foundation. They are also on Facebook and very, very active on Facebook. So you could find the Fast Foundation on Facebook as well. You know Armen, you are doing so much there. Share with our listeners, really what are your top three or five initiatives at Fast right now and let’s talk about coming out of this pandemic and where the rest of the year is going to go in Armenia with Fast and beyond this year. So share a little bit about current initiatives, post-pandemic and then where we are going from there.

Armen: We focus on science. So let me just explain what that means for us.

John: Yes.

Armen: Science, it is the body of knowledge, right? It’s year 2020 not year one, so Science exists. It is not that science needs to be, you can always expand it, but first you need to understand it. And to understand Science to make use of it, you need to have education. Without education, doesn’t matter whether the science exists or doesn’t exist, you have zero appreciation for it. So education is a key element for us. And then so suppose you understood Science because you are educated, you are well educated, you understand it, you can preserve it. But then extending scientific discovery, expanding Science, you need to do research. So that is the second kind of a pillar for us that we pay a lot of attention to and then the third, great to know Science, great to extend science, but then you gotta utilize it for something that benefits humanity.

So we look at commercialization of Science. What is it that you can do to help commercialize Science? And so we, our all work is around those areas in education research and commercialization of Science. And if you put science in the center of it, so we have some [inaudible] phenomenal initiatives to do in all these three areas of its peek. Maybe I’ll give you an example of one or two for each, one probably for each to make sense of things.

John: That would be great.

Armen: Yes, for instance for commercialization of science. We have this initiative, we call it Advanced Solution Center ASCENT. We actually structured this with Noubar Afeyan. Believe it or not, his group in Boston flagship pioneering that was also the entity that founded Moderna, right? Moderna came out with flagship pioneering that is an incredible Venture Builder that has venturing to incubation and venture funding all in one. So we worked with nobody on this team to create that very model here in Armenia.

We were all skeptical to see whether something of that nature could work in Armenia because you need the echo system especially in Boston. You have MITs, MIT labs. You have a lot of physical infrastructure and then human capital for you to be able to do biotechnology and similar types of discoveries there. But we were pleasantly surprised. We established it here and within very short period of time we send some of our people to be trained in Boston. And some of it trained here, their team came in from Boston to train some of the guys. And now, we’ve already generated a startup that has an incredible potential, it could possibly become a unicorn. It was all made in Armenia. We really, really, I myself was big time skeptic whether it would be possible to think of platform technologies out of Armenia that is not looking at Armenia as a point of solution, but just point of creation and the solution is a global solution. So it’s a platform technology that could impact all sorts of verticals or sectors regardless where you’re doing it physically. So that’s really phenomenal. We have a group of young men and women working at space. Right now, and we already have a startup that has gotten external funding. And we have several other companies or possible startups of that nature in the pipeline that could go for major funding in the next a month or two also.

John: That is awesome.

Armen: So that’s one, and we are very, very, very excited about this. We recently launched a comprehensive granting scheme which funds and connects distinguished international researchers for local postdocs and accomplished researches here locally and bind them in a two-year program that will produce publishable and patentable work. This cohort currently is on bio medicine, AI, and advanced materials. And this is a large grant, maybe between fifty to seventy five thousand dollars a year for a group to work. So this is nothing of that nature exists here and I don’t think anywhere in the world of shape up this way that would lead all the way from finding a team or founding a team to publication and patenting, everything is funded. So we launched this and we’re right now in selection process. So that’s on the research side. It would be for fundamental scientific discoveries rather than applied scientific discoveries as it would be with ASCENT on the commercial side.

John: Got it.

Armen: And then on the educational side, we have this, we have number of progress with this one that is fascinating. And I think you and I, we spoke a little bit about this in Armenia that we are training young men and now also women for the unit 1991 and a military. So in Armenia, conscription is mandatory and we are, right now, training seventeen, eighteen year old young men who will end up in army for them to join this unit 1991 that will focus on artificial intelligence and machine learning for them to compose intellectual side of military. Not only serving in the army to protect the borders, but also think of, for them to become highly educated while they are serving in the military. So when they finish their service after two years they come back far more knowledgeable and far more educated than otherwise, they would have been even if they’d stayed behind and gone to universities. So we’re changing the narrative, where defense was or military was all about going to serve for defensive purposes. Now, military is also about education and making better citizens. So these young people don’t lose two years of their life just learning how to protect the country but also the country is giving them opportunities for them to be highly educated young men. And then we’ve also created an opportunity for young women who can actually volunteer in some cases also get contracted by the military for them to work on some of these solutions that will be focused on AI and ML, machine learning and whatnot. So it’s major educational component for the military, but I speak of it only because it’s kind of a creative way of bringing education to families, not only through professional educational or academic structure, but also in a creative way, going into other aspects of human life and giving them education there as well.

John: That’s awesome. So it all really–Science is the base of everything and then from there you build everything off of that.

Armen: Yes, yes. We look at science as–I mean it is. John today when we talk about what’s happening in our reality. I mean really, imagine if we were all properly trained. This science–regardless what type of we’re speaking about, was properly funded as well. It would be a different… Absolutely, I’m hoping there will be a shift in thinking for the government and that’s what we’re doing in Armenia and we are very fortunate. As you said to be working with so many phenomenal people, the President of the country, we have the Minister of Education and Science on our board as well. And also, the Prime Minister’s Office, the Prime Minister himself, very interested engaged. You met him briefly at our forum when you were in Armenia.

John: Yes.

Armen: They are also very thoughtful, very mindful of necessity and importance of Science and scientific discovery.

John: Armen, I also know you are so multi-dimensional. It goes way beyond science with you. You are also a true environmentalist for all the right reasons. Share a little bit about when I was in Armenia, one of your ideas that you created with then the minister of the environment, common friend of ours Eric, and the Prime Minister was around the environment that you are going to be doing this fall. Share a little bit about how you did that. How you announced it and what is happening with that initiative right now? Because I think that is so important to it, to show how–you are not only impacting Armenia and the rest of the world by showing great leadership there with your incubation of Science and entrepreneurs but you are also nurturing and reinventing the environment of Armenia, which is going to help lead that whole region to a greener future.

Armen: I appreciate you bringing this up John, because you are one of the leaders in the space around the world when it comes to looking at environment climate change and making something of value out of it. I have been always impressed by the work that you have done. It is really phenomenal what you have done on many fronts but in your spent on electronic recyclers, it is so important and in how we take all this poison into landfills and you potentially not allowing this to end up poisoning our environment. For that I thank you…

John: Thank you.

Armen: As a citizen of the globe because it’s such an important work that you are doing. In Armenia, look, I think somewhere after the Soviet collapse, we have lost our focus as people, as nation, I think Armenians and also between 1992-1994, the war with over Nagorno-Karabakh with Azerbaijan didn’t help because there were major energy crisis in Armenian and they’re cold winters in Armenian people needed to get warm. So there was a lot of logging, a lot of trees disappeared from all parts of the country because people needed to survive. When people need to survive a lot of bad things could happen. So we did not really–and since then it has been over twenty five years. We have not really done the right things when it comes to the environment. We do not have as many trees, we are good because we have got a nuclear power plant here. So we get a bulk of our energy from that source. But we haven’t really meaningfully invested in clean technologies and alternative renewables and we haven’t planted trees, at least, we haven’t planted in enough trees and that’s something that needs to change. And that’s what we are looking forward here to do. We made an announcement during our forum that we will plant ten million trees on October 10th of 2020.

John: Ten million trees. That is amazing.

Armen: Ten million trees, ten million trees. It’s significant for a number of reasons. There is about ten million source to say, there are about ten million Armenians around the world. So we wanted to signify that, ten million trees Armenians, ten million trees for every Armenian. But also, Armenia wants to plant about a billion trees as part of their trillion tree campaign around the world and we need to start somewhere. So we wanted to start in one day, in single day, October 10. So it is 10/10/2020 to plant ten million trees.

John: Wow.

Armen: But now, we still plan to do this. But Covid-19 derails some of our plans as well. We needed to do a lot of planning, planting. This is important, the trees, you just can’t find them, right? You have to grow these things. You have to bring them from other places. If you do not have them enough here, so what we are planning to do and that was something that Minister had a conversation with the Prime Minister here too. For us to at least do a million trees this year, sometime in October and then push this for next year till next fall for us to come back to that ten million. The reason behind this because we want, besides planting trees. We want people like you. We are not here to be here for us to have this major collective event where we as people come together and we take care of our country. We take care of our nation, but now it is dangerous. We do not want to do that in October. We do not know where we are going to be when it comes to this virus, bringing all these people to Armenia and not having all the protective elements in place. We can’t risk it.

John: That makes sense. But it is an initiative that once things come back to some new normal and there is a vaccine out and the world becomes a safer place. It is an initiative that will be picked up on and continue to move forward with, in the months and years ahead. I take it.

Armen: Absolutely. Absolutely. We absolutely come back to this. This is important. It’s necessary and on Monday, I planted five trees myself with the help of friends naturally. And then on Tuesday, I wasn’t there but they planted another five trees in my house. So I’ve planted ten trees this week only. So we are going to do everything possible individually as a group for us to bring more plants to Armenia but do the right thing. Without them, we have no chance of survival. We got to learn how to live better with them. We got to live. We got to make sure that we understand them better and we take care of them the same ways they have been taking care of us.

John: I love it. And for our listeners out there if you have just joined we have got Dr. Armen Orujyan. My great friend on from Armenia from Yerevan. He’s the founding CEO of the Fast Foundation. To find out what him and his colleagues are doing, their great work at the Fast Foundation, you could go to www.fast.foundation or Facebook where Fast Foundation has a very lively area on Facebook as well. Armen, we were talking before we started taping the show. You travel a lot. You are very busy, you have meetings around the world. You are also on the board at Rice University’s Baker Institute for Public Policy. So I know you go to Houston a lot and you are also on LA to visit your family. How has it been during this pandemic and when do you think you are going to be traveling next again? And how do you see the rest of the year in Armenia? How is Armenia coming out of this pandemic? And what does the rest of the year look like Armen Orujyan but for Yerevan in Armenia.

Armen: I think that’s the million-dollar question. I came back from my last travel. I was in Jakarta, Surabaya, actually, but through Jakarta, I went to Surabaya. I was in Indonesia for about a week. Elijah’s here, March 14, and then Indonesia closed down on March 15 and Armenia had a special emergency laws in place from March 16. So I just made it like here, right? And then I have been here since. I had a flight to LA on March 23rd, which got derailed. So I’ve been in Armenia the longest now, to over two months continuously. And I haven’t been in LA since January, so I haven’t been in LA with the family for a long time. The first flight that was announced out of Armenia, commercial flight is scheduled for July 3rd, and I am already on that flight.

John: Wow.

Armen: So that will be nearly six months not being home. I’ll travel home on July 3rd, and I will be in LA on July 3rd. Hopefully, I will be able to stay there for a while but there’s a lot here. Now, in terms of how Armenia is taking care of it, Armenia, look we’re kind of insulated, right? So we have only four neighbors. Two of them, two borders are closed. We’re kind of used to not having a lot of activity here in Armenia. We’re nicely situated or prepared to take care of ourselves in situations of this nature.

So the country is doing relatively well. People are learning how to live with a virus. People are learning how to have this physical distance, some people do it well than others and some entities are doing better than others, it’s normal. But there are also conspiracies all around. Actually that’s normal when you do not know what’s happening, when you do not know all the information, conspiracy, theories, they just rise, they just ripe. It’s normal, it happens in every society. Let me do it, look what’s happening in the United States. So that is also rampant here.

The case has increased whereas, about three weeks ago, you would say about forty cases a day. Now, you are close to four hundred cases a day. So that’s a big jump only because on May 3rd, the government announced that they are going to be opening the society for March 4th. And then when you look at numbers you would see from about March 14 or so, the numbers started increasing and then after that almost like exponentially because times ten is exponential to me.

Everyone is learning, including the government is learning how to deal with the situation. You do not know how much of it, how much does the economy can keep shots. This is dangerous, it’s a give and take. Not here, meaning it’s a give and take with this current situation for anyone on the planet. I mean relatively well, you want to be here than in New York City for instance.

John: Right. Right.

Armen: And you want to be here rather than in Italy or in Spain or definitely you do not want to be in Brazil, right? The government is handling as best as it could, given all the information that we do not have and all the resources that we do not have in trying to address this issue and handled it. I think we should be in better shape and in few months, we will learn better of how to work, how to coexist, how to live with this and hopefully we will reach a point where there’s enough herding unity that will be able to ride the wave or our Noubar Afeyan and Moderna come up with a vaccine and enough people will be vaccinated. So the numbers will decrease and eventually be meaningless. I do not think it’s going to completely disappear. I do not see this virus as one of those that you would just kill off, at least not quickly, not for the next few years. It will probably be with us at least for a few years. If not longer. So we will just have to learn how to live with this.

John: Armen, Before we say goodbye for today and let you have your evening back in Yerevan. You have any final thoughts for our listeners, we have a lot of young listeners around the world that want to become part of the new economy, part of the new normal, part of an entrepreneur and they want to make an impact. They want to make the world a better place like you have done over and over again. Any final thoughts for our listeners before we sign off for today.

Armen: John, I would say one of the key things moving forward, many jobs are going to disappear and many of the jobs that we lose today, they may never come back. One thing is very important. Anything that has to do with creative thinking, anything that has to do with creative analytics is going to be with us at least for the next decade too.

For young people, I think learning mathematics, learning hard sciences it’s so important. It is more important today than any other time in the history. With that type of a power kit or toolkit, they have chance, they have opportunities for them to reinvent themselves for them to do any types of, to participate in any type of economic activities and they would be able to weather any type of a storm.

Learn physics, learn chemistry, learn biology, learn mathematics. Absolutely, Data Sciences, anything in data analytics, AI, ML, all of those things are so important. Doctors may be replaced, lawyers may be replaced, absolutely. There is no way to argue that there cannot be a smart machine that will have access to so much information and so quickly than any other attorney that could be in the courtroom. There is no way to compete with that type of a powered–with that type of access to information but being on the forefront of scientific discovery, knowing hard Sciences are critical for young people.

I would absolutely encourage our young listeners for them to spend some time, six months, take six months a year, two years out of their lives right now and get a toolkit of that nature. For them to really be able to have the power, the strength, the right set of skills for them to compete better, for them to be able to be competitive and also contribute. Contribute to betterment of society for them to be able to be those types of phenomenal inventors, innovators and entrepreneurs we’re going to make a difference in not only in their lives, but your life, my life and every and the society’s life.

I mean what if one of them is the genius that is going to find solutions where no virus can ever impact the human being. No cancer can impact the human being. No person will be killed through an accident because a human is driving the car. In all of these things to be eliminated and the young folks that are listening to us. They could be the engineers of that. They could be the minds that are actually doing things of that nature for us.

John: Armen. Thank you so much. Those are wise words from a great man. You’ve made a tremendous impact on my life. You have made a wonderful impact on Armenia and every community you’ve touched and you’ve made the world a better place. Thank you again, for joining us today on Impact. This is your first time on, it’s not going to be your last. And it is really an honor and privilege to have you as a friend.

Armen: And John, I really want to thank you. You said we’ve known each other for many years. I met you some thirteen years ago. I have seen you pursuing your dream, building a tremendous business empire contributing heavily to the global sustainability through as I mentioned electronics recycling but also traveling the globe and always put a smile on your face, which is contagious. As those of us who are fortunate to be in your company always smile because of you and I am really, really grateful for the planet to have a son like you. I really wish I can do my little part and that you and I can come together and do something massive both for Armenia and the planet. It would be my privilege and thanks for really being a part of the show.

John: Thank you so much. And you are going to be back and join us and talk about all the great updates that are happening at Fast and then also in your life. And I look forward to seeing you in July in Los Angeles and being able to, not be distanced from you, to be with you in person. It is always an honor and wonderful to just be in your orbit. So thank you again Armen. And for all of our listeners in Yeravan, we’re so grateful to have such a wonderful community and for Armen to be there among you all leading the way it was just one of the most exciting experiences of my life.

Armen: Thank you, John and thanks everyone for listening. This really has been a phenomenal experience. Until next time John.

John Shegerian: Welcome to another edition of the Impact Podcast. Today I am so excited and honored to have with me, my friend Joe Ursuy. He is the Senior Vice President of Department Manager and Founder of Comerica’s Environmental Services Department. Joe, that is a long title I know but thank you for being here today.

Joe Ursuy: John, it’s an honor to be here. Thanks for inviting me and I am really looking forward to spending some time together.

John: Joe, I am just going to share with the listener’s way up front here at the top of the show. You are not only a good friend of 13-plus years. You are also the banker of ERI, which is the company that I am lucky enough to be the Executive Chairman of and I just want to say both, thank you for the friendship, thank you for banking us all these years. But I wanted our listeners to know that I have asked Joe for years to come on and I am just really honored for him during this crazy COVID-19 tragic period that we both had some time to catch up together. And I wanted our listeners really to learn about all the important work that you and the folks that run your division with you, underneath you, your colleagues, all the impactful and important work you guys are doing. So this is a real honor for me and a privilege that you are here today.

Joe: Thanks, John lots of banks could and would Bank your company. I am just proud to be a partner and a friend and looking forward to sharing some of the things we have going on today.

John: Yes, so let us get into the Joe Ursay story, so talk a little bit about growing up in Michigan where you went to the college and the beginning of your banking journey.

Joe: Sure, I grew up in mid-Michigan and a blue-collar background. My dad worked at Auto Company and my mom was a secretary and she ran the church choir, played the piano and I went to school there and did my undergrad at Northwood University in Midland, Michigan. It is a private business school and I started at the bank in 1998 in our credit analyst program and during that the time I was a Credit Analyst for a couple years. I did my MBA at University Detroit in Michigan and progressed through the lending ranks at Comerica from there.

John: Joe when you were growing up as you said blue collar, which is how I grew up as well. Was this something you aspire to or what were your dreams growing up? Was it to be a banker or did you have other outside interests in terms of your professional career path?

Joe: It is a great question. I never knew I would work at a bank and I got okay grades in high school, very good grades in college in Economics. And I went to a job fair and stumble across Comerica and gave them my resume and they said, “Come in for an interview/” And yes, anybody that knows me knows I really do not like being late I am very prompt. I am nervous about being on time and I was late to my job interview that day because I was traveling down to downtown Detroit which I had been to very much. I grew up kind of in the country–

John: Right.

Joe: I was using Map Quest and I got lost. And I remember there were no cell phones back then or they were just starting to come out. So I pulled up to a gas station pay phone, I called the contact in HR and she said, “It is okay, Joe I understand, why do not you turn around.” And she gave me directions and I showed up for my interview at the bank. And I actually was interviewing for the wrong position, and she said, “You have pretty good qualifications; you should go to this, quite a training program.” And so, the rest is history. They gave me a shot and that was it and I never knew I was going to be in banking growing up.

John: So now you start your journey as a Credit Analyst and when was the moment that you realize that you could do this, you could stay there longer and evolve there and do other things?

Joe: It was probably, we went through the credit program and I was always a hard worker and I did a good job and I got hired into a Generalist Middle Market Lending Group in Detroit as a Junior Banker after I got done with the analyst program. I went through Middle Market, I went through real estate and they hired me back in a Middle Market because they liked me. And when you become a Junior Banker, you finally get some clients and I was handed a portfolio of clients about 15 customers, just a smattering of different industries, Automotive Manufacturing, there was actually a cemetery in there, Distributors, Industrial Companies and there were two Waste Management Companies.

John: Hmm.

Joe: And I quickly figured out that the way to be successful at the bank was to bring in revenue and that is how you can make a little bit of money. And so, I started to try to bring in clients and being in Detroit it is heavy industrial, automotive manufacturing. And at that time all of our Executives were in Detroit and being a 22 year old young Banker, meeting with entrepreneurs who have been around the block it was very difficult to crack in to that industry. There was just so much so much competition. There were so many people in the market calling on these companies. They knew my boss; they knew my boss’ boss etc. So I looked at these couple waste management businesses and I said, “Well, I wonder what this industry is all about, maybe I can learn about this and yes grow this industry.” And so I started to really talk to those clients, they had a lot, learn or business, subscribe to all the trade publications, calling everybody in the industry, just really studying that business. And then one of those clients referred me to their friend and we brought that customer in and when that started happening and that started happening a lot is when I realized that I really stumbled into something, where I could build a business.

John: So now wait a second, most people who think about a large corporation like a Comerica Banking Organization or for that instance or a Goldman Sachs or another type of financial institution. They think pretty much you get a job there and you work your way up the ladder, but in 2006 you created a unique paradigm. You started the Environmental Services Group there with the knowledge base that you had built up on this way sector. Is that not correct?

Joe: That is correct. Yes, we started with about twenty million of loans and then to word-of-mouth referrals and doing everything I just said and then bringing in a couple of really strong bankers to help me along the way. And a lot of luck we grew that up to three or four hundred million dollars of loans, still being in a general middle-market group. And my boss and mentor, Mike Ritchie who is always been very supportive, sponsored me, “We can build up national business out of this platform. Let us make Joe a Manager. Let us form the Specialty Group and see what happens.”

John: So really you were doing the homework while you were building your portfolio and gathering all the information on the Waste Sector which had not been heavily covered by Comerica before. And you literally became almost an entrepreneur in residence or an entrepreneur, as a lot of other business professors would call. You became an entrepreneur inside of Comerica because you launched basically a division that never had existed before.

Joe: That is correct. And the bank was very supportive and anyone who knows Comerica, it is a very strong commercial lending business and it is a plain vanilla bank. It is a beautiful business and it is fairly conservative. So, they had a lot of confidence in me that at that young age, I knew what I was doing, I knew what I was talking about even though, looking back 15, 20 years later, I probably did not. And so, I gave the bank a lot of credit for supporting me and in setting up this platform and the growth has been fantastic but we have had our challenges along the way and we have learned from them and been blessed to really have good people on the team to help grow the business.

John: We are going to go through the journey, was a journey is always exciting and interesting and overcoming hurdles are some of the best stories but share a little bit about fast forward to 2020. How big is your division now?

Joe: Fast-forwarding to today, we have roughly it changes every day about two billion dollars of commitments to the Environmental Services industry, which for us is Waste Management Companies, Recycling Businesses or Waste to Energy Companies, Renewable Energy Businesses, Industrial Waste Company. So that is our platform, we have bankers in Detroit, Michigan Dallas, Texas and San Jose California and we have about 21, 22 people dedicated to the team, we have our own credit people dedicated to supporting my department. And so it has been a really nice growth business not hyper growth, we have been very, very slow steady 10 percentage type growth over 15 these years and here we are today.

John: Joe, you are very humble. You say slow steady, but you went from just a great idea and a couple of clients in 2006 to 2 billion dollars. And anyone who understands business and commerce that is fairly remarkable and quite amazing and what an accomplishment. For our listeners who just joined us, we have got Joe Ursuy today from Comerica Bank, he is my friend, he is my banker and he is also the leader of the Environmental Services Department, the Senior Vice Department manager and if you need to find Joe, A. he is on LinkedIn and B. you could always go to Comerica.com, C-O-M-E-R-I-C-A.com and find Joe and his colleagues that do the Environmental Services lending there. Joe, that is why I wanted to have you on Impact because I know you have been so kind enough and generous to introduce me to so many of your portfolio brands over the years, over shared dinners or lunches or just in other social settings. And I am always fascinated by the tremendous group of individuals, entrepreneurs who have you funded over the years and have promoted in terms of their business growth. All these companies have made generous impact in their local community some on a national level. I would love you to go into some of your favorite sectors that you cover besides Waste and Recycling and Energy and some of the brands that your portfolio companies represent and why you bank them and why you are so excited about the sector that you are in.

Joe: Yes, we lend to we think the premier run-operated, sustainability-focused waste and recycling companies in North America. And if you look at a list there is some public companies at the top, there is some really small companies at the bottom, everybody in the middle a lot of those our clients and a lot of them we found them when they were much smaller and not what they are today, and we have helped them grow their business and be successful. Just a small part of it, obviously they are doing the hard work and then we are their partner along that journey. When I started the business 20 years ago, there was no real lender focusing on helping small or middle-market waste and recycling companies really grow their business. And the industry is very fragmented, there are lots of really small companies, there are few very large public companies, there is everybody in between. Back then, there were a couple large banks they were focused on the larger companies, but nobody was really focused on the Middle Market companies. And I think that is the industry that we really helped take to another level. We helped those companies grow, those owners who had aspirations but could not get the capital to do that acquisition or bid on that large contract. And in early 2000s when we got into it we found those people and a lot of them, most of them are still our clients today. They have built up businesses, they have kept them or they have built them and sold them and then built another business. And if you talk about the who is who of running, large, active, privately-owned growing companies in that sector many of them are our customers and we are very proud of them.

John: And you cover besides waste, you cover recycling obviously because you cover our company and other responsible recyclers, you also cover energy and other sectors as well.

Joe: We do. We really started and accredit one of my managers, Matt Bright for really digging into this industry landfill gas to energy which is a renewable energy form. And we did our first deal on that space in 2008 or 2009, so we have been doing it for about a dozen years now. We are the renewable gas coalition; we are the only commercial bank that is really focused on that sector. And that is a beautiful business but it is a cash flow business, it is long-term agreements at the landfills for the methane gas, which is very harmful for the environment as we all know. They convert that either into electricity or into pipeline quality natural gas and sell it to utilities primarily under a very long term typically 20-year power purchase agreements and we financed the construction of those facilities; we finance the acquisition of those facilities. And that business is very interesting and really the whole industry that we cover, you would think about what we do. Now there is really something going on in the newspaper every day that impacts a part of our business whether it is energy prices, natural gas prices how that impacts the renewable gasoline prices, commodity prices how that impacts recycling, even what is going on right now with coronavirus. There is a decrease in commercial waste volume. There is an increase in Residential Waste volumes.

John: Right.

Joe: Things like cardboard has been languishing over the last couple of years, over the past couple month’s cardboard has really spiked up due to some supply and demand imbalances. The business is a simple business, but it is a fascinating business to follow and to learn more about.

John: Joe I have met so many of the entrepreneurs that you have bet on and they are not only nice people and smart people but they are truly the epitome of the American dream. They roll up their sleeves, they do the hard work, and they know their business inside and out. When you and your team are assessing entrepreneurs and businesses to bet on, where do things fall out or is it all black and white the numbers is it your emotional intelligence and read on the entrepreneur? In essence it is like going to the racetrack and you are betting big, are you betting on the jockey or the horse? And explain the math that you do and your team does when you are placing your bets.

Joe: It is a great question. And some of it is a gut feeling over time about people sometimes when we are evaluating the numbers speak for themselves. But even when the numbers speak for themselves, sort of my little teams rule is we kind of have the no jerk rule. We just do not want to do business with jerks and we want to do business where if we do a good job, our clients will reward us and they expect a lot of us. So really for us when we are looking at people, a lot of our business is word-of-mouth. And so most of the time when we are talking to somebody, one of our clients is vouching for them not all the time, but many times it is. If not, we are looking at people’s background; we look at how they answer simple questions. Can you have a conversation with them? When you are done with the meeting, so you understand what was said? Do you understand the answers? Does their strategy make sense to us? Are they thinking about their business the right way? What is their opinion on leverage and debt? What is their risk tolerance? So there is a lot of different questions that we can have just over a conversation with somebody where we can learn a lot about them. And typically when we go out and meet with people, we will spend quite a bit of time with them. We will spend a full day with them; we will tour all their operations and spend a lot of time in a car together. We will learn a lot about their family and they will learn a lot about us, their goals, what they want to achieve with the business. And usually that stuff lines up really well and with all of our clients that does and so that is really how we evaluate it, John.

John: Hmm, that is really interesting. Do you think you understand an entrepreneur’s mindset more than most bankers because you really are yourself an entrepreneur in residence at Comerica in many ways?

Joe: I do not know. I think that some of the stories we hear from our clients it is the old thing about, there was no plan B. And there was no plan B for me, whatever I was going to do I had to be successful at it. I could not go back anywhere there was no fallback. And a lot of the guys we lend to and our clients, they grew up on the back of a garbage truck, they did the worst job. And some of them went to college, some of them did not go to college but some of them are extremely sharp and sophisticated and really know their businesses. So I do not know if it helps me, but when I hear stories about how people grew up, and a lot of our clients are really blue collar people and that resonates with me and a lot of my team are the same way. And those are the people we really want to go the extra mile and help because we know they are all in.

John: Talk a little bit about, you mentioned earlier you’re a blue collar guy. And you said to me first when I met you 13 years ago with your team with Matt and Ian and so many of your other great colleagues that I have come to become good friends with and feel like family with after all this time that you guys used to jokingly call yourselves the blue-collar bankers, But when you go out and you meet with new potential clients, what is your value proposition, what is your pitch?

Joe: Yes, I think that we want them to feel like we are on their side and we understand their goals, we are a relationship bank and we are working to create wealth for them, not for us, for them. And that is really the overall mindset, is that we are willing to work very hard just like they are and we are going to understand their business as well as anybody. And we are going to understand their goals and what they want to achieve and we can help them with lots of things. So I say it is a combination of an old-school relationship banking, a couple of the pretty deep industry knowledge of their business. And the value-add side it is a lot of different things, what is going on in the industry, being able to ask good questions, introducing people. We have made a lot of introductions over the years it resulted in many opportunities and a win-win for our clients and prospect resources that we have. We have experts in all areas that really know our clients’ business just as good as we do, financial due diligence, Legal Help, Accounting, HR, finding people, finding CFOs and then finally just bench-marking information. We just had a client the other day say, my SG and A as a percentage of revenue is X, what are you seeing for my industry, for my size of company and we can kind of look around and say, “That is within this range.” So with the portfolio that we have, that is the type of value that we can bring to our clients.

John: Talk about your commitment to service to your clients. I have worked with a lot of bankers over the years, Joe and service level of your team is second to none. I have told you this before and I will say it again publicly while I am the majority shareholder of ERI and the Executive Chairman, we would never change banks because I have never seen a group give the kind of service your team does. How do you create a culture of service and a culture that replicates your No Jerk Rule and ensures that as you have grown your team from literally zero from just you and a good idea that Mike Ritchie approved, to this large national team now that you have, that you have curated and now manage about two billion dollars. How do you create that culture and how do you always put service first? How do you instill that on your team?

Joe: Yes, that is really all we have. At the end of the day there are lots of banks and there is lot of bankers and there is a lot of money flying around and ultimately its people, its relationships and its quality of service and it is a simple business. And so, our team of bankers is staffed to whereby, a lot of bankers handling even in middle-market groups, 20 to 30 clients and we are substantially lower than that in my department. And part of it is because we travel so much, logistics make it a little difficult. The other part of it is because we were staffed to grow our business, the bank really wants to grow the business and so do we. And the other part of it is because all we have is service. And the type of things that our clients want to talk about and they want to learn about or they want that extra white glove treatment, they take time. So we staff are bankers to whereby they can do that. And then the culture is really a teamwork culture and when we look to hire people particularly and it is may be overly simplistic, but I like people who are competitive and I like people who have sold something in their life, and it might be selling popsicles when they were 15, 10 years old I do not care. But if you compete and you want to win and you can sell then we are probably going to like you on the team. And we have never least in my department I am speaking of; we have not hired anybody from outside the bank which is pretty unusual. It is all homegrown people here and the managers, myself, Matt Brighty and Berns over 20 years of experience just to Comerica. Our average banker relationship manager over 13 years of experience just to Comerica, all homegrown culture of teamwork, culture of bringing each other up and I am really proud to say that we have never lost a banker to a competing bank in my 20 years of doing this. And three of our bankers went on to be our CFOs at clients and other one is VP of Business Development at another client, so they were hired by our clients.

John: Right.

Joe: But our culture is, one of being fair, rewarding people, and taking care of our clients. And it is homegrown and it is just the way we have done it does not mean it is right and as we get bigger, it may change but it has work thus far.

John: For our listeners who just joined us, we have got Joe Ursuy today. He is the Senior Vice-President Department Manager of Environmental Services at Comerica Bank and to find Joe at Comerica Bank. You just go to www.comericabank.com or you could hit Joe up over LinkedIn if you are interested in having him or his colleagues. Look at your company to be banked by them, Joe is out there and he is very reachable. We are going through this COVID-19 tragic period in world history right now, Joe. When things are good everybody is in a good mood and of course life is pretty easy from a business perspective, from an entrepreneur’s perspective. But really when things get rough you really realize who is on your side, which is going to roll up their sleeves and do the hard work and the heavy lifting with you. Your team has been just beyond amazing during this very difficult period just speaking personally with regards to our company, ERI. I would love you to share your thoughts on relationship management through both these unprecedented times or other economic downturns that your division has faced before.

Joe: It is a great question, very topical where we are at in today’s environment. And going back to Comerica Bank and being headquartered in Detroit for a very long time, it is in Dallas now, the heart of the automotive industry, the automotive industry for a hundred years has been cyclical and we have been a part of that. So it is always kind of been in the bank’s DNA to understand that there is going to be hiccups, there is things that go wrong and we are going to sit down face-to-face and we are going to come up with a shared solution to get through whatever problem that we are facing, so our clients trust us to be fair. In Environmental Services, we have been doing this for over 20 years, now we are on our third recession unfortunately, it does happen.

John: Right.

Joe: And the bank as I would call institutional knowledge of my industry. It is not one guy or gal making a few loans off the side of his or her desk and somebody finds out about it one day when something goes wrong and they just want to exit and it is too bad for that client or those couple clients. We have a business here, we have infrastructure, we have our own card up policy, and we have credit people. Everybody all the way up through our chain of command knows what we are doing really well and so we are committed to the industry in good times in tough times. And we have a lot of clients that face the same challenges. So a lot of the issues facing the industry right now, we hear the same story and frankly in some areas of the country, it is much better than other areas that are hit a little bit harder. And then I think that because we know the value that our clients have in their business and because we have such a big view of the industry and we have a lot of information, we can view this as maybe a blip or other people might view it as being more major. And so we can help our clients especially during this time take advantage of growth opportunities. We want to grow our business at the bank and we want them to help them grow their business and maybe there is a competitor that maybe falling on some tough times that they can buy for a good price or a company is struggling with a contract, maybe they can take that. And we want our clients to have the confidence that their bank knows their business and has a capital behind them to whereby they can take advantage and grow their business during a rocky environment like we are now.

John: Talk a little bit about visibility. No one has a perfect crystal ball. So many publicly traded firms have even stopped giving any forecast and guidance for the rest of this year. With good reason, what is your thoughts on two things, Joe both on the general economy as we start to I am saying recover from COVID-19 and also in your sector, are you bullish on your sector and the growth of your sector in the months and years ahead?

Joe: In terms of my sector and what we are seeing from our clients and our perspective clients, we are feeling really good. We feel really good about the portfolio and we read research reports from the equity analyst and second half of March it slow down, middle of April seem like a trough in terms of our clients commercial activity and then a lot of people are saying every week it is a little bit better as State has open up, businesses open up. And then hearing about some of the results and revenue numbers coming in for April and some verbal May numbers, I feel really, really good about the Environmental Services’ business that I manage. And there are lots of other things going on, there are positives that are happening with fuel and commodity pricing in some regards. Obviously some of these commercial establishments may never come back which is terribly unfortunate.

John: Right.

Joe: But if you believe in America long-term, like we do somebody will open up a restaurant in the spot that the other restaurant closed in and that is just the way it goes. So I am I am always bullish long-term, having been through the Great Recession and managing through our business during that time. I think it gave me and the team a lot of tools to manage the portfolio is really good training for this. And that but in terms of the sharp, how fast this happen it is truly unprecedented. So long term, we will see there is 40 some odd million people that are unemployed, which is extremely scary, but in terms of my business right now I feel really good.

John: You bet big you bet big, Joe on environmental services and sustainability before it became a big thing. It seems from what I have seen in our company, but you also just from your portfolio growth that the circular economy trends and sustainability revolution and evolution is here to stay. On a macro basis, you feel good about that as well, the growth of circular economy behavior, which is only going to drive more companies to be greener and do more recycling, more clean energy and be better stewards with the environment.

Joe: We really do. In fact, that is something that we want to do more of. We really want to grow in that business. And I think you read the article I do not know it was last week that I think there was more renewable power consumed than coal whether it was last month or last year. And so that is here to stay and we want to find the economically viable, the bankable business models in that segment and we found some and there are clients, we want to find more. And then on the recycling side that business because of what China did with a China sword a couple years ago.

John: Right.

Joe: That actually is a blessing for the domestic recycling industry because that model where the commodity risk was really on the recycling business or the processor, whatever word you want to use, that was not sustainable. So when commodities dropped, when China basically cut off imports or cut the contamination levels from 5% to 0.5% which nobody could hit. It flooded the domestic market with materials, prices plunged, and a lot of recycling businesses that had too much of exposure to the commodity suffered greatly. Now what you are seeing over the past couple of years and the public companies have been leaders and a lot of private companies are doing a great job, too is it is okay. You want to recycle, we want to help you. Pay me more of a cost-plus type thing, right, all right. I am going to give you the commodity upside, the supplier or the commodity you are going to get more of the upside and I just want a little bit of the upside, but I want to make sure my cost get covered. That is a much more sustainable economic model for that industry and then corresponding to that, it is way more bankable business now. And so what China did and that plunge which was a short-term pain, long-term is great for that business. So, we have talked about it, we are gearing up, we are members of the renewable natural gas coalition. We are meeting all the centers of influence in that sector, we know many of them, but we are looking for really good business else that actually generate cash bankable businesses and we want to help those people grow.

John: Got it. Joe, there is a lot of young people that listen to this podcast; I know you have two young men growing up in your house as well. What advice would you give for the next generation coming behind you? In terms of career advice, is it to go your way, get an MBA like you did and go into banking or something like that, or you have had such a unique peek into so many companies and how they go and businesses and great enterprises across the United States and Canada or do you say, “Hey, go be an entrepreneur and here is where I would focus.” What is your guidance for the next generation coming up behind us?

Joe: With my boys, I am not sure if they are listening, so I will tell them the opposite. Whatever I say, I will say the opposite and they will do what they want to do. But now it is a great question and, I always tell my boys that I got really lucky, I did not really know what I want to do. I knew that I was going to work really hard. But I kind of lucked into a job at the bank as I described being late for my interview and then applying for the wrong position. And then I kind of got this portfolio and really struggled bringing in business and I found a way to this industry, maybe I can help these people. So I always say keep your eyes open and I actually found something I loved and banking is a term but I love helping people achieve their goals. And some of our longest customer’s very personal friends of mine and banking I think where the younger generation may be a negative connotation, but we do a tremendous amount of good and we have created a lot of wealth for a lot of people including job creation.

John: Right.

Joe: These companies that we have had over the years, they are creating value, they are creating jobs and they are building facilities. They are building recycling plants. They are starting companies. They are selling companies. They are starting a new business. So that is the fun part for me is that we have great clients, good people to see them succeed. And then we also get the meet because we visit them a lot, we meet their front line management team a lot, we see the activity and see that industry that middle-market waste recycling, waste to energy business that we kind of helped grow and start funding that 20 years ago, to see all those jobs and all those people and the families and the ripple effect of that all over the country that we played a small part in, it is really, really a fantastic feeling it really is. So, I love my job and for a lot of people would not want to be a banker but find something you love and then you will adage, you will never work a day in your life.

John: That is a great attitude, Joe that had just become old adages for good reason because they are typically really, really time-tested and true. And I love what you said Joe because it is really true. People do not understand, it is easy to throw rocks at certain industries and politicians do it all the time just to try to get on TV because they are desperate for airtime or something of that nature, but the truth of the matter is without bankers like you and your team that are funding the Innovation Nation, that makes us such a great country. We would be nowhere. What our entrepreneurs going to do. It is not easy to go out and raise equity capital every quarter or every year or every five years even. So to have bankers like you that see value that sees trends that take the time to understand industries is such an important role in the ecosystem of the innovation nation that we both have been lucky to have been born in. I know you are a big Sports guy and so am I, and we get to visit all the time and use sports analogies and things of that such and before we say goodbye, I am going to leave you with one. I want to just have some of your thoughts where Michael Jordan during this ESPN ran that Michael Jordan biography, a 10-week biography of Jordan recently and the 8th episode ended with him talking about his thoughts on winning and leadership. And you are both a winner Joe and you are leader. And I would love your thoughts on his thoughts at the end of that episode. He got emotional and he said, “Winning has a price and leadership has a price.” What does that mean to you and what you have created in your very young life and young career still because you are still very young at Comerica Bank?

Joe: Yes, that was a great episode and I personally thought that should have been the ending of episode 10.

John: Yes.

Joe: And that was a really great documentary and I love even though I was a huge Pistons fan, I was always hugely respected Jordan. And I think that his competitive fire is something that is very valuable and we have talked about that and really in my world when you are the captain of the ship, every problem is your problem and when you are a banker you have your portfolio and you kind of mind your own business and when your leader you take responsibility and you coach, hold people accountable. I think we have a very robust coaching and feedback environment on our team, Matt Brighty and Berns are very good at that, brighter than I am. But the price that I paid was as I mentioned, there was no plan B for me, so I have had a lot of sleepless nights the in early years, we were writing a credit policy. And I knew that the first several deals that I did in this sector had to work out and if I did one that did not work out, it would have been over. And that is a lot of pressure and especially when you are getting into a new business inside of a company, everybody has got their eyes on you and I made mistakes, I made a lot of mistakes. I did some really bad deals and the bank stood by me and that loyalty that was created there was huge and as I mentioned my boss and mentor Mike Ritchie, has always stayed by me. So, yes that to me is very important and that is what I try to learn from those around, that is what I try to show the people that if people are high integrity, high character, they are working as hard as they can, and they make an honest mistake because Lord knows I made many. I am going to support them. I am going to support them and if they need coaching or a little constructive criticism, we are going to pull them in privately and the success of the team is their successes, they are not my successes. Their successes, they are the ones out there working really hard on the airplanes, calling a company, taking great care of their clients, handling the whole relationship, I am just steering the ship for them but they are making that thing run. So I cannot say enough about the team that we are really blessed to have a team like that to be able to put up these results over so many years.

John: Well, Joe I just want to say thank you for your friendship over the last 13 years. I have learned so much from you. I have learned so much from your team. And we have just been honored to and privilege to be banked by your company. Comerica is a great Bank; you run a great, great division there. For our listeners out there if you are interested in finding Joe, he is on LinkedIn and of course, you could find Joe at www.comericabank.com. If you want a relationship with a bank that is client obsessed on service and relationships, Joe and his team is the right team for you. Joe thanks for your time today, the impact you have made in America in terms of the environment, in terms of making the world a better place is second to none and I just want to say thank you for joining us today on the Impact Podcast.

Joe: John. Thanks for having me, much appreciated.

John Shegerian: Welcome to another edition of the Impact podcast. I am John Shegerian, and I am so honored to have with us today Kaila Methven. She is an entrepreneur and the CEO of Madame Methven. Welcome to the Impact podcast, Kaila.

Kaila Methven: Thank you so much. Thank you for welcoming me. How are you today?

John: I am great today and there are so many important topics for us to go into but before we get into all the great things you’re doing and your life as an entrepreneur CEO. I want you first to share your journey leading up to becoming a CEO philanthropist and impact player in this world.

Kaila: Sure. Where do you want me to start the day I was born?

John: Where you grew up, tell me about growing up.

Kaila: All right. Well

John: Where you from?

Kaila: Wow, I feel like I am really being interviewed for like the first time here. I love it. So I was born in Santa Monica and I grew up in LA, Beverly Hills.

John: Okay.

Kaila: You probably call me your Beverly Hills Queen for everyone to Beverly Hills High. Verdejo and my mother sadly were very very sick. She was an alcoholic and she very sadly passed away when I was 14 after that, I had the choice of either foster care an orphanage or meeting my father for the first time in my life. So I grew up with my mother by myself. So it was very, it was not a difficult childhood. It was always in and out of hospitals, my mother had cirrhosis of the liver due to the fact that she was an alcoholic. So it was really hard for me as a kid growing up, I lived in seven countries, I was home-schooled most the time, I did not really have a normal Christmas or Thanksgiving everything was kind of like the kind of off.

John: Right.

Kaila: I did have a stepfather. He was a little bit older than me. He is 10 years older than me. I think this day. So yes, I guess my mom likes them young, it was a good role model, I mean, I don’t think it was the greatest but he did what he could and but my mom passed away and after I moved to France and my dad was very Muslim extremists. He is one of those guys that pray five times daily. Everyone wears all the girls cover themselves completely and the household, they do Ramadan they go to Temple every Friday. So yes, that really was a very big culture shock to me, and I respect everyone’s culture and what they do and everyone’s different beliefs and everything. But it was a shock in the way that, sorry, I am just gonna drink some water, it is just a shock in the way of a girl losing her mother at the age of 14 at prime age when you are developing hormones are rising and already your mom’s already a little bit off due to the meds and all the hospitals so you can only imagine, you know her passing away and then three days later. It is like, okay you are off on a plane. You do not speak French. You have never met your father, and you are about to go live with a family you have never met. So here I am like I am, I remember on the airplane wearing some Abercrombie & Fitch like shorts and a t-shirt and a backpack and I am like there was my luggage ready to go and I remember getting off the plane in the first thing I said to myself was holy shit. It is fucking cold here. That was the first thing I said when I got off the plane. Wow. It is really cold because as a California girl, I have always my mother and I have always gone to the Bahamas, Mexico, Hawaii.

John: Everything was warm for your life up until then until you got hit with it. Wow.

Kaila: Mother, it is cold and you do not speak the language. So I am kind of like at my death road here and then on top of it I meet my dad and he is wearing a Jilla Bob from head to toe and I am like, that is my dad? and so that he takes me home and then I am like I go home to a one-bedroom apartment not even in Paris in the suburbs of Paris and there is I have like four brothers and sisters like running around that are just toddlers and I am like, where is my room.

John: I feel like we need to get jacked up a toll on this interview because he is like, this is the opening of one of his movies like this is amazing. I mean what the heck.

Kaila: Your better it gets better.

John: Go on. Keep going.

Kaila: I can not, I am like, all right. So where is my room, like this is crazy and they are like oh, no, you are gonna sleep on a mat and in the kitchen or in the living room, we do not have room for you. That is what Arabs do we just you know all live together and sleep on the floor and I am like, oh, okay. I am like, one bathroom for nine people. Great, this is fun.

John: Oh, boy.

Kaila: Now and I was really crying very depressed. This is my mother it was really hard growing up. I was counting the days until I could get emancipated. I tried many times my dad hit me every time I tried to get him at the pated finally the day I had the night. I turned 18 literally gone at the taxi, lifted up my middle finger and I never turned back.

John: So that was just that for clarity. That was four years of hell. Four years.

Kaila: Four years of hell. Yes. My dad was very abusive. They did not like my art. They believed that women who studied art went to the devil. They did not believe in my success. They did not believe that women could do anything if they believe that I was basically made to sit here and just like babies, clean and cook and I was like fuck that I am going out on the world. I am making a difference. I am changing lives. I am going to become an amazing lingerie designer and that was it. So that was always like that was never really my dream at first was to become a lawyer but how I did not speak the language, it changed. So I went to the All American School of Paris.

John: Right.

Kaila: I finished up high school there and then I went on to S Mode which was my fashion school and it is like they are very intense. It is like getting into the yale of fashion.

John: Really in Paris. Yes?

Kaila: Yes and I did not even know a lot of people are gone there John Galliano, John Charles, [inaudible] Jacques. Who else is gone there?

John: It is the Yale of fashion. Like you said. It is the place to be.

Kaila: It is the place to be. Yes.

John: And you are on your own at this time. You are on your own.

Kaila: Yes, so does for my self. I was working like five jobs. I worked at a McDonald’s. I worked at Sephora. I worked at a flea market. I worked at a Boulangerie, which is basically a bakery at 5 a.m., and every day to get to work in from school, it would take me an hour and a half by train. So I was commuting every day to work three hours. So my day in my daily life was this basically wake up. I would wake up probably around 4 o’clock get ready to shower. I would be at the bakery or wherever by 5, I would work probably until 8:30, and then I would take the train my classes started at 11 in University and they were from 11:00 until 5:00, and then after that, I would then go to work again at McDonald’s.

John: Oh my gosh.

Kaila: Yes, and then after that, I would go to work again from probably from six to nine or six to ten then take an hour and a half train ride home. Then I would do my homework until 3:30, and then my day would start again. So I was literally on no sleep for like three years.

John: Kaila, but this is fascinating. Where did you have this Burning survival mission DNA? Where did it come from?

Kaila: I always just had this feeling, my mom made me promise to be somebody and be somewhere and just help people and my mission is really is to God. It is just too you know, I really feel for so many people out there that do not have a roof over that their head or who are insecure of their gender or who are not able to have a job because of their sexuality or their race or their drug addiction or because they have been abused as children or as adults, I feel for the world that who was suffered and open in pain because I have been in pain. But the one thing that my mother has always said is, do not be like Mom, do not leave this world the way I did. She said let people remember you and it is in such an important voice that you have changed the world, so that is always been my mission and I was eight years old and when she said that, I did not say it earlier, but my mom committed suicide she didn’t leave a no she did not, we do not really, she did not leave me. She actually left me bankrupt for a little bit of time. So I had to pay off a little bit of her debts.

John: I did not ask her earlier, but I take it from just hearing this story. You were an only child.

Kaila: Yes, it was really hard.

John: It was you and her.

Kaila: Yes, and no one from my mom’s family wanted it to take me and my stepdad did not want me. So I really did not want to know the orphanage because they said I was most likely not going to get adopted because I was too old and I did not want to go into like, Foster because I was scared. So I chose to meet my father. I spoke French after about a year and a half, usually, when you are younger you can usually take all languages faster. So I was able to start working probably by the age of 15. I remember I worked, two jobs a day and I went to school and so I am getting very emotional here.

John: So out of all this pain and suffering you rebirth yourself as someone who was going to do good in so many ways if you got through this and you knew you were going to get through this.

Kaila: Yes, I was not going to let myself die. Like I knew a part of me died because my mother passed away. So he felt a part of you is already gone, but I knew that I could walk out 10 times stronger, and I could help a million times better, and I knew that even though it took me time and energy and all my blood and sweat and tears and a lot of my money. I thought and I woke up every day fighting and I cried so many times today and I am even crying right now because I really really wanted to make everyone in this world have a better place. I always wanted to make women feel important. So it is first started off with the boulangerie. So let us go back to

John: let’s go back to school and I am going to just tell you something. I got to just take a pause here for listeners who just joined us. This is a very very important episode of the Impact podcast. We have got Kaila Methven here and she is a CEO and founder of Madame Methven. You could find her at www.madamemethven.com.Madame with an E. Methven.com. Kaila, I am 57 years old and I have been doing this podcast since 2007 and I have met literally had thousands of guests on its I did not expect to hear what I have just heard and for you to be a Survivor and not only a Survivor and we are going to learn later in this podcast, a thriver of suicide, abuse, abandonment. I got to tell you I meet a lot of cool people who overcome a lot of things you have overcome a lot more of them almost anybody has ever heard. So I got to just say right here right now. I mean, I am blown away by what your backstory I did not expect any of that and I do not think our listeners expected any of that. So I got to just say I am blown away that you are here even just standing up today besides all the great things you’re going to get into that you are doing with your brand and everyone that you are helping. It is amazing.

Kaila: I am like in tears right now.

John: It is amazing. Take us now. You are in school at the Yale of fashion. Take it from there.

Kaila: Yes, very excited. So this is where the blossoming were the row starts to open. Right? So finally my rose starts to flutter and I am feeling happy. I finally got an apartment. I live alone. I am not going home to an abusive family anymore that hits me, you know like I am happy. I am not dealing with any rate of my dad’s racist judgment against me I am not being blown away for being a woman, and studying so I am happy. I am in my studio. I am working I get to come home and sleep soundly and I have a thousand people around me every day. So this is like a great moment in my life. So this moment I also am a moment where a lot of people do not know is they always say, oh my God, she kills millions of birds. She is the cave Sierra’s like and what most people do not know is that my trust and my family actually, I am on my mother’s side really do hate me due to the fact that I am Arab and a quarter black. So I will actually at the same time while I was going into University. I was also taking my trustees to court, to win over my money. So my money was not given to me. My money was not handed to me. I was spent two years in court fighting them.

John: In the United States?

Kaila: No, in France.

John: In France, you were fighting them. Oh, wow.

Kaila: Yes. It was crazy.

John: Wow to be that young, to be in a court battle, and also putting yourself through fashion school. I can not even imagine.

Kaila: Yes, that was crazy, so but it was blossoming. I mean things were going well, I was making great friends. Finally, after all the years I felt free I was discovering who I was as a woman I was learning who Kaila was I was creating with my hands. I was drawing. I was creating, I was making myself feel beautiful. I was finally my heart stopped crying. I would be able to come home and paint I was able to come home and draw and so these incredible things that I was able to now, today dress on celebrities was heard about that later, but you know, it was amazing I was going out every day and having drinks either with my not co-workers. But how do you say this? I guess your fellow students’ fellow colleagues. Yes, there and we are all from different areas of the world. It was really amazing people were from China the peace some people were from Russia, some people from Africa some people were from, it was amazing. So you are just sitting there with different people like from all over the world and you are sitting there just learning all these different languages and cultures of we are all studying the same thing and we are all creative and they all have different stories as well and like most creative people. They all have very interesting lives and we all connected and it was just a real blast and I made some I have to say my University years were probably some of the best years of my life, and I think everyone is because it is the parties the fun times, the creativity, the friendships you gain discovering yourself who you are. It was fun, it was really a lot of fun, and I just remember just getting up and being happy to go to school every day because I was doing something I finally loved again ever since my mom died.

John: It was like-minded people for the first time who accepted you for who you were.

Kaila: Yes. I did not have to pretend to be anyone. I did not have to quieter stood in the corner. I did not have to be that girl. I just got to be me and it was such an honor, and this is comes back to me also with the whole LGBT thing is why I relate so much to this community is I know what it’s like to have your mouth shut up for so many years and not be you and not feel like you are in your body or in your space or where you should be or where you belong and how to feel treated differently or how to be shocked that people do not accept you for who you are. All out of that comes from you know from living with my mother than going to live with my father he know is like I understand their sufferance in their pain for anyways, moving forward. I graduate then I go study my masters in China. Study my masters in China had a great time there.

John: Where were you in China?

Kaila: In Shanghai? Yes, I did a master’s in art there. That was a blast as well as my best friend Elias. Elias is now in Sweden. He has got his own line. Yes, we were together through as mode then went to China together best friends.

John: Awesome.

Kaila: Yes, that was great, and then from there, best friends again went to Polimoda the School of Versace.

John: Where was that?

Kaila: In Italy, Florence.

John: Oh boy and how old were you now like what is your age range at this point?

Kaila: 17 until 19. I just turned 17, so I did a three-year course up to your bachelor’s and Master’s was one year, and then 21 my MBA.

John: Holy Toledo.

Kaila: I skipped the four grades when I was younger. So I think I did something like kindergarten and then I skipped fourth grade then I skip something like 8 and then I skipped one grade in high school.

John: So obviously you are off the charts in terms of intelligence. But you are also showing off the charts in terms of resilience. Let us be frank here Kaila. I mean like you are loaded for everything. I mean, you have got it all you have got the whole package and you were the one who found a way to put it together. I mean unreal so now you are 21. 21 or 22 and now what you’re just coming out of Italy.

Kaila: I worked for Vogue in New York.

John: Come on. How was that?

Kaila: I lived in Mulberry Lafayette. I had an apartment there. That was cool and I worked in Chelsea. I worked in the textile department. That was fun and I worked for Vogue but then sadly I got stuck in Hurricane Sandy and after like nine months I was like, I think the city has got a lot of you know, I did not have any roots there basically I had no friends. I had no family at their Roots at least in LA I did so after Hurricane Sandy when the lights turned on and I went through a really horrible like anxiety attack like a three days of no lights or anything. I came to LA, I just took my backpack, and the TV turned on and it was that movie Gigolo would what is his name? He is with the guy from Pretty Woman. He is so good-looking.

John: Richard Gere.

Kaila: Yes.

John: I love that you are so young. You do not even know Richard Gere. That is so cute actually.

Kaila: Sorry.

John: That is sweet. I like it. It is good and sweet.

Kaila: I was watching it and then TV turned out I was like, okay, that is a sign. I need to go back to LA. So now I am back in LA, since God knows when.

John: Wow.

Kaila: So I go back to LA and I end up staying in a hotel Tsukasa Venice sweets and some Venice Boulevard and it is literally like because I literally had nowhere to go. So I literally took the plane landed I was at hotel bookings.com and I was like boom bitch. I just booked that bird and exist back then so I was like a taxi take me there ended up being at the hotel at like 3 a.m. in the morning with a backpack. Hi, I just booked a room and it was like this cute little of cute little Boutique Hotel and then I wake up in the morning. I open the blinds and it is like I see people roller skating ice to the beach. I see all these amazing like the sunlight and I am like, oh my God, there are no more Dark Towers everywhere like in New York. So busy the city, and I was like wow, this is amazing. I am back to the roots of where I started. So the first thing I said is like God I need a drive again because I drove a vest spot in Paris and I took the train. So the first thing I said is I need a car. So when I got a car, I got a real apartment in Beverly Hills and I got a little studio in Downtown LA and I started creating my Couture dresses.

John: And you were all of 21 or 22 at this point? 23?

Kaila: 22 now.

John: 22 unbelievable. Okay. So now you start creating from scratch. Now, you are starting your fashion lines from scratch.

Kaila: From scratch. I said I am going to work for myself, as I interned for a lot of people in France like judge house across bushwhacked if you check in here comes a little bit. So I did it all I could from Chanel, Jean-Paul Gautier like I interned for like all the top brands, but then I said, okay. I am going to do my own fashion show because I had my first fashion show was at 23. So 22, I got my little Studio. I had one lady that was working for me. I had one of my court cases by then with my trustees. So I finally became like I had my money on the side.

John: You were emancipated.

Kaila: Yes. Finally, I got what I deserved.

John: Good for you.

Kaila: Thank you, and I hired a woman and I started just working slowly like in my little what would you call it, design room and I made a collection. It was called Latrodectus and it was named after the black widow spider and it basically after she finished fornicating with him. She eats him. So that was based on one of my first relationships because I found love in France and his name was, he looks like Lenny Kravitz and I am when I was 14 and we started dating when I was 16 and he was just gorgeous.

John: Lenny Kravitz is a good-looking guy by the way like just put that out there.

Kaila: Yes. He is really good looking. I do not know. He was this the dream Bourgeois Z. I mean it was a French was handsome. He had a motorcycle. It was snowing we are making love like in the middle of the streets of Paris and the snow and that is how I got into lingerie. By the way. It was because of him. I would wear lingerie non-stop to his house all the time.

John: How cute.

Kaila: So it started off basically as a sexual relationship and it turned into love and that is how I got into lingerie at the end of the day. So I would always come in with new lingerie. I was wearing Le Perla from agent provocateur to everyone I was there in every breath, and every time it was new lingerie.

John: Tell me what is going on. I love that. I want to understand the creative process. So you are wearing lingerie. It is a great point of your life. You are in love and you are in the city of lights, but when you are wearing the lingerie, you are saying I could do this better or this is just it is good but it is not great. Is that what is going through your mind back then is that the Genesis for creating your own line.

Kaila: Analysis, like I just felt so much power in the bedroom, like wearing one lingerie. I was like I am going to turn into every man’s fantasy so that they can never ever say no to a woman.

John: So what was the issue of empowerment lingerie equaled empowerment? Got it.

Kaila: I wanted to leave men with you know, like when you get married or when you have flashbacks you have like flashes in your head. It is like, I know that when I have flashes like for example of my mother, let us just say our mother like I remember the first time as she comes to my school on my first day of school. I remember the first time I rode a bike. I remember when she had this birthday party for me. I remember when she held me and she used to call me puppet. That was my nickname, and we would go strawberry hunting in the garden. I know that sounds stupid.

John: No because you are talking about what become for all of us.

Kaila: These were my flashbacks.

John: Yes, searing memories, memories that are seared into our brains.

Kaila: Right, but your relationship with a man, what are their flashbacks with a woman? It is obviously the first time we kissed, the first time we had sex, the first time we went on dates, the first time our eyes locked, the first time he got me a present, the first it is always the first but I would say what happens if it was not always the first what happens if I could make every time the first time to fall in love again and again and again and that is why my slogan is with Latrodectus to fall in love again because it never ends. So basically she walks down the aisle then basically, you have the wedding night, which is unforgettable for most men. It is always going to be a flashback that will always be a flashback for every man. Oh, I remember my wedding. Oh, I remember the wedding night. You know what I mean? get married again. Right, but what happens if I was able to create this for every Valentine’s day or every anniversary, every Christmas, every special holiday, or just even every Saturday I can make those flashbacks sticking your mind with the power of my lingerie and creation.

John: I love it.

Kaila: That was my goal, was to keep the sexuality to keep beloved, to keep the romance, to keep things much keep everything the lost the passion going, and I just love the fact of people being in love together. It was for both sides. It was not just the woman. It was for the men as well, I wanted people to always be happy and then this is how I got into my LGBT side is I got started getting clients that were the same sex. So I was like, all right. Well then, all right. I was like, alright, so I started going back to LA. So after that basically there was a woman who discovered me. Her name was Tash. She works for now PR. She was my first publicist. She had no idea who I was, I never wanted to be famous. I want to make that clear. I never wanted to be a socialite. I never wanted anyone to know why was I never cared about that. I never wanted to model. I never wanted any of that. She discovered me and she started putting my clothes on celebrities, so I will just take my close to her and she would say. Hey Kaila, I need this done and that is done. I need you to head over to that studio drop off the stuff. I was like, okay sounds good. Okay, after two years. She is like by the way, they want you to model the clothes and I was 24 now. I am like I was like, I am five foot one. I do not think that is going to work out. You know, it is not really my thing. You know, I am more of the girl that sits in the back. I just sew and create and dressed the girl and the model walks. She also put on my first fashion show by the way at LA Fashion Week that was really amazing, and in Paris, it was 23 years old. It was really amazing Latrodectus came out.

John: This is all still with your first line of Latrodectus, that is this. Okay. This is it and for our listeners out there who’ve just joined this a very important episode with Kaila Methven known as Madame Methven. She is the CEO of Madame Methven and you can find her great line of clothing and I am on their site right now and it is a beautiful sight and it is easy to use for all the sinners at www.madame with an e Madame Methven M E T H V E N .com. madamemethven.com. Go ahead now you have now you with this young lady who is your publicist, and also putting your first line of clothing and lingerie on celebrities. Take it from there.

Kaila: Yes, so, you know after like two years or so, she asked me to model, I kind of opened up a little bit to her about my life, but I never told anyone who I was and then I woke up one day and then I was on the cover of Maxim, USA.

John: Wow, that is big time.

Kaila Shegerian: It is they can see Eris exist. I am like, oh God and I got a million calls. My publicist was like your the kids here as I was like, yes, my family’s to own and they sold it to Pepsi, first of all, I like to make clear here. I never chose to be called the K of Sierra’s they sold it to Pepsi. So I should be called the Pepsi here, but they wrote literally on the headlines was finger-licking good Pepsi. I mean KFC heiress of me like in my lingerie naked mom like, oh my God, the whole world is seeing me naked right now went viral and literally, after that, I think I had about I do not know like I think I had about 50 people contact my publicist demanding interviews. So I did all the interviews and then I started doing like camera interviews, which I totally needed to say that I had to get a training coach and media coach, and then I had to get another publicist that would work for red carpets because I start getting invited to events, and then they said okay. They are like, do you model them? Like, no, they are like, okay. Well now you do, you know you are in maximum now you are in and then they shot me in Playboy then they then it when it started going up higher in the magazines to Angelino to like the Latin said that it was Mary Westwood. I have just done sassy like in Australia than now I already have like nine magazines of already booked for Rave magazines like the next one, which is my EDM one, which I will talk about later.

John: Sure.

Kaila: And it is just, I think I have been on over a hundred and twenty covers worldwide and I have been in over I think 800 magazines worldwide. It was just been a lot. So that is where my life escalated and it kind of turned into. Okay, you are no longer a designer. You are all these things my Instagram blew up overnight everything kind of changed and I kind of kept it as much as I could on the down-low, but I stopped fighting it and I said I am going to use this maybe this is why it happened. I am going to use you know, I am going to use this power to get out great messages to the world and like, change it so fast-forwarding 24 to I will name some things, I have done like I invented the 1.5 million dollar bra I did that.

John: I do not know what that is. Obviously.

Kaila: That cost 1.5 million dollars made it only of diamonds.

John: Wow, and how many were there buyers of it?

Kaila: Oh, yes. Sure. Wow it on TV shows. What else did I do between 24 devices? I was a woman of the year. I want five design award-winning designer Awards. I would then I got offered I was managed by Best PR and managers in LA and town and I have been shot by the most amazing photographers worldwide my life really changed. I had to get a Glam Squad I had to like it here. Oh, I see Alex started and what like discovering the universe now, it is totally different now. It literally likes a 24/7 like people are there all the time. My team is about 50 people now.

John: Wow, that is so nice. That is great. So wait a second. So when did you go from just one line to creating the madame?

Kaila: Now we have the made-to-order, which is me which is all the jewelry line. It is custom-made for celebrities like princesses in Dubai, you get a lot of people from a lot of Arab countries that reach out to me for wedding nights. They love like all their wives in diamonds and special occasions. We have the Mademoiselle line, which is basically being called a boyfriend line, which is sexy lingerie to like wear around the house. You also have the Latrodectus line that is still happening. You have the LBKM line, which is what you would call The Calvin Klein line, which is basically everyday underwear that you would just wear just underneath your clothing, but it is still sexy and then you have the Madame Special K line that the newest one, I just launched this December that is a whole another story probably for a whole other podcast because that took two years to make and they literally it got stolen and I had to remake it again. So I lost $500,000 worth of clothes. I got broken into my store. It was busy. That is another day another Dawn. But okay the good news. I have a clot. I have a company that signed me on and it is going to be sold worldwide in 2021 to 400,000 festivals.

John: That is the festival lingerie line.

Kaila: Yes. It is called Madame special K. Like as you know as in Special K the drug, it is and they have all got like dirty names. Like they have yellow yay and its mass Market you have the Banger Banger rats. You have the Daddy’s dead Duchess, and you have like the bubble gum tit squat you have the glow-in-the-dark systematic, and it is fun.

John: Awesome.

Kaila: I get to collaborate J’s and it is a lot of fun. Sadly, I was supposed to start earlier but due to the whole COVID, it completely changed, and that is where I came up with the plur is actually it was generating for that 2 a.m. in the morning. I came up with a plur at that moment.

John: Explain to our listener’s and by the way, I am on your amazing website and like again.

Kaila: I think it is closed down due to the factories and everything right now. So but it is all reopening cheddar a second.

John: That is great. And what is plur what is the plur stands for PLUR Association stand for explain to our listeners what that is.

Kaila: Peace, love, unity, and respect.

John: Thatis awesome. That is when you started that organization.

Kaila: I did it, you know because I said, I wanted to change the lives it literally just hit me like 2 a.m. I think I was watching some crappy Netflix like a television show and I was like I need to do something great this year and this is before COVID head. I said I want to save millions of people’s lives I said, how am I going to do that? I said I am going to help in the plur organization because plur usually stands for peace, love, unity, and respect. It has to do with the LGBT, meaning respect us, even if we are transgender, pan.

John: Sure.

Kaila: It is being gay, cross-dressing, whatever you are respect me, and it also goes for being straight or if you have three wives or not.

John: Right.

Kaila: Whatever you are. It is beautiful. That is what intense.

John: I love it.

Kaila: That is why I love the EDM Community. There is just no judgment and that is why I went in went into it is because it is a completely different brand from all the other brands I ever made because there is the color it glows in the dark. It is happy its freedom its Liberty. It is allowing people to be who they want to be and I also changed as a person when I made this because I open my eyes, I guess when I started making this I was I am 28 now. So two years ago. I was 26 when I came up with the idea of Madame Special K. I just changed as a person and I think it was because I was ready to any you get a little bit older after your mid-twenties and I think start to kind of come out of that shell where you are just ready to be happy and accept who you are as a woman and I had gone through a lot of battles in my life and I was finally happy and at a point where things were doing really well for me, it is hard every day, there is always a problem, obviously running a business being a CEO you always have to put out fires. There are spots left and right. I mean, it is I wake up every day with fires and good news and bad news the changes own or but finally I found peace in my heart, I would say at 26. I think I finally, you know forgave my father, forgave my mother. I think I finally forgave a lot of people that have hurt me, I found in the power of God to just say dear God, I forgive them and for anyone I have hurt please have them forgive me and I was ready to just move on in life and create a life to make other people happy and not me, not just make it about having it be a sexual relationship but also at being a relationship with yourself as a human being and making other people happy worldwide and that is what EDM stands for me is making people happy worldwide. Not just with the music, not just with your friends partying and having a great time and drinking but it is about the community and how they are there for one another no under no matter what circumstances and that’s what I fell in love with and because we do not have that you can say in America as much as you want that, you know, we all accept each other. We all love each other. This is a great country. Etc. But we are still at today, you know, just look at it three weeks ago black lives matter. We are still facing problems, you know to add in the EDM Community. We do not face problems. We do not see color. We do not see sexuality. We do not see politics. We do not see the culture, we just see you in the eyes of who you are and that is what I love.

John: I want to go into that for our listeners are just join. We have got Kaila Methven. She is the CEO of Madame Methven. You could find her great line of clothing at www.madamemethven.com. Kaila, this is an important episode of impact because you are doing many many great things. Some people just come on to talk about one Mission there on, you have got many things going on at once. I want to sort of toggle from your great clothing line for a second and go into this. It is just this week and that is why the timeliness of this show is so important this last past Monday, as we know there was a critical Supreme Court decision landmark decision that does not let employers fire people for being part of the LGBTQ+ community. Can you share some of your thoughts on what just happened? And where you think we are going to be going and how you are going to be a leader in the direction of how we get there to post this Landmark decision.

Kaila: I had made any mixed feelings because I was like, all right, here we are you’re telling and I was on a phone call with a girlfriend of mine is transgender. She is on little woman of LA and she is just the most beautiful person ever and I personally really really really love her as a person. She is just great. She is beautiful. She does high fashion and we were talking about it and we were talking about how her name is Plastic Matera. She is a very famous transgender and we were talking and she was complaining about the fact like, she would go to the Emmys and use the restroom and Oprah was even fighting this ever Twitter and she was kicked out.

John: Oh my gosh.

Kaila: And I felt so bad. I was like, wow, this is serious. And I am happy about the law that now they are not going to discriminate in any workplace. But what about I am still not aware of does this mean the restroom does this mean the cafeteria? Does this mean restaurants? Does this mean as I am still not understanding with the Supreme Court exactly where what they are saying, I understand under work circumstances, but should it be under all circumstances? And at any place at any time.

John: Wow, I agree.

Kaila: Oh for me and I hope that plur had some, you know effect to it or somebody on the Supreme Court, read my article and was like, she is doing good. You know, we need to help out the LGBT more Community, like it is not enough that they can not go out and be lawyers and doctors and they are being judged for it. It is not enough that they are not getting accepted into universities. It is not enough that they are not able to go walk on the streets and they can’t go to a restaurant and not be stared at 4:30 20 minutes and it makes me cry and actually I am starting to cry right now because even as a straight woman, I find it completely unacceptable. You can be whoever you want to be no matter what, no one could tell you under any circumstances. Now, so for a doctor to have the right to say no to you, it is not. Okay. So let me get this straight all these rich guys in Beverly Hills can take their wives to get bigger breasts. But if there is a there is a man who wants to become a woman you are telling me he has the right the doctor has the right to say, no. This makes no sense to me.

John: I agree.

Kaila: So it brings tears to my eyes because I am like under the medical field. I understand there is estrogen. There is just testosterone, we work on different hormone balances. I understand medically, maybe they probably need different nutritions than us. If you are a man female or male, I understand that but what does that have to do with your sex change? What does this have to do with knows? What does this have to do? If you want to be a woman or a man? Whatever this is your choice, we are just people all of us are just people who word people and you know every day worth trying to figure it out. I make a thousand mistakes daily like anyone. I am still figuring it out, Jesus, I can not even date normally.

John: Kaila, though. You are a really incredible person. You are a doer you do not sit still you do not let the world get you down in everything that happens to you. You do not let it you when you are knocked on your butt you get right up and you keep pushing forward. So now you understand more about the Human Condition than most people get in a lifetime and you are still tremendously young talk a little bit. I want you to share with our listeners. I want them to be inspired by the action that you are taken given how important of a topic this is to you and what it means to you talk a little bit about the pledge to raise a million dollars to help the LGBTQ community and the impact that you want to make with unemployed and historically marginalized people of our of the LGBTQ community survivors serve the living people and others that have historically been marginalized by our society with immunity times are changing. We are living literally living it right now.

Kaila: We are living in a very shitty time right now. Let us be honest.

John: So I want you to break it down and share your thoughts on it. And what are you doing?

Kaila: [inaudible], It starts off. I think we are all excited. Right? Yes, they do everything we can to 2019 is over. I believe it was January 7th. I went to the hospital and I had a hundred and two fever and they could not figure out what was wrong with me. So let us start there and I could not even lift up my arm. I was so sick and they kept saying she must have the flu B something’s wrong with her and they were x-raying me I was not coughing I did not have anything wrong, but they could not figure it out. So they just gave me what they used in Sweden of the Z-Pak and Amoxicillin. So I went home for two weeks. Thank God Amen. God bless. I was so much better. They came out in January 2010 and 2020 on the 21st of January. They said COVID is real it is here. And I said, okay. Alright then going on. I am in the middle. I just launched plur and my and my decision was I said to myself I want to help millions of people find jobs, but how can I do that as a lingerie designer? How can I do that as someone who is selling the festival wear? how can I do that? As someone who is selling clothing? So I said what about if we make independent contractors agreements where basically they can do it on their own time anytime in the world in any language in their own space by Zoom door. The privacy of their home or if it is either by travel or in by if they know a local shop by selling Madame special care anyone of my lines they get to automatically keep the 20% of whatever they sell.

John: Wow.

Kaila: Normally stores will not allow that normally it is like 8 percent to 13 percent 20 percent upfront changes your life. You sell 10,000 you get to keep your 20% You said 20,000 get to keep 5,000 you get you to sell a hundred-thousand you get to keep thousand up to you. So right now, with plur this is where we stand we had about a couple thousand people right now that we are signed in we are going to be doing conferences around the United States and we are going to be going to LGBT centers on domestic violence centers rehabs for the facilitation because a lot of people that come out of them do not have jobs. And what we are going to be doing is we are going to be providing them with all the necessary tools lookbooks, spreadsheets everything we are going to teach them. We are literally going to get P presentation. We have people that are trained. We have training videos for it. We are going to allow them to go out there and and and a represent the brand and plur and who they are and anyone could work for plur. It is open to everyone if you want to volunteer. You can just volunteer if you just want to donate money just to help with the cause, you can just donate if you want to just call and you just need someone to talk to you can reach out to 1833 on Madame M, and please follow the plur association official, it is on Instagram. And also my Instagram is Madame Methven. So at Madame Methven, if you guys can follow us both just DM me, and then you can sign up also the website is Methven and METHVEN and plur.com and yes, you can go right in. It explains about the charities we have brand ambassadors. We have Disney on board. We have Festival attics onboard the owner of the GrooVe cruise. We have the Beverly Hills housewives on board. We have some of the top lawyers, doctors, in the world on board, and we are trying to find more people. We have American me now and we are getting a lot more people on board as we speak. It is really hard to start a charity especially in the middle of a pandemic but we are getting there were doing it. And we are doing really well and it has been hard because I have gone a lot of death threats, a lot of people that are against the LGBTQ + community have put me down. I have had people from my past come to me willingly wanting to threaten to like hurt me. Literally. I have had people DM me and say that I am disgusting for helping them. I have had people literally contact me my CEO and be like I want to work with her because she loves that she loves gay people, and it is just been really hard for me to heal all here all this hatred in this world, even though it is for everyone. I have repeated it a million times. I just feel that you know, they deserve a chance and to be seen just like everyone else does.

John: Right. That is amazing. So your goal is to raise 1 million dollars at least for people who have been impacted, correct?

Kaila: Absolutely, and we have done really well so far and you know, it is been a great journey. I have also received so many love letters and carrying Love Letters from people and support from so many of the communities and centers and so many brand ambassadors the people who I have met friends through this journey, and I have made another community and I feel like it is just going to be great. We are actually going to be having in 2021 on Groove cruise is one of my partners that I work with Jason Bucca, he is the CEO and one of my really good long-term friends. I am also going to be doing a fashion show in January with them, but he offered to throw the plur official party of 2021 with all the brand ambassadors that will be there. Everyone will be there. It is going to be like the launch so I am really excited about that.

John: That is so important and congratulations this you are really Beyond business for such a young person to be taking on the burden of this kind of controversial topic and like you just said these people writing you love letters and thank yous and these people that are doing the opposite and exhibiting hate.

Kaila: It was scary.

John: I do not blame you.

Kaila: Lawsuits, blackmail. It is been scary. I have actually had to Airbnb in Hyde left and right now.

John: Oh my gosh.

Kaila: I have actually, moving to another location as we speak now because I am just so scared. But no matter what, I feel that I will always stand for what I believe in and for women who have abused men who are abused people of drug addiction who people have been in through gone through racism through these past weeks people feel unloved people who just want to talk to somebody people who need a job. I am here. Call me DM me, text me it is on my Instagram. It is on my website. I have a team reach out. You are not 11 do not ever feel that way because I have been down that road. I felt depressed. I felt sad. I felt like a million times. I want to kill myself. It is the end of the world, right? My mom’s dead. I do not speak French, what am I doing here? You will get their life does change you can not get up.

John: I love your message before we sign off for today, and of course, you are always welcome back on the show to continue to share your journey and to also share any new initiatives that you have. Can you Kaila share it with our listeners? How do you recharge? who inspires you? I want our listeners to hear because you are giving so much. Where do you draw from now beside yourself, which we know internally? You have a resilience That’s Unique Beyond Unique who inspires you and how do you continue to draw strength every day?

Kaila: I do not really have to say it is just seeing the people happy and smile and mostly my mother the memories of my mom and the fact that I wish she could be at my wedding or see my grandchildren or for my mom everything I do is for my mom and for the people.

John: I did not ask you earlier, but I will ask you now how old was your mom when she passed tragically.

Kaila: I was 14.

John: You were 14, but how old was she?

Kaila: She was 40.

John: She was that young. Wow.

Kaila: Her name was Lisa Methven. Then I recently just fed like the guard National as well, and I was really upset like my story did not get picked up so much and I was really upset about it because I felt like no one cared about them and it just broke my heart because there is just so much protest, and looters and everything going on lately and now COVID it is coming back and it is just a very sad time now, but I just want people to remember to keep their heads up high and to smile because even when you are down below and you feel like it is the end of the world and trust me I have been there a million times and I am crying so hard right now and I know that even when you feel unemployed and your heart is broken and trust me, I have had my heart broken a million times and I have a hard time to get inspired sometimes as well. I do not want anyone to ever felt let down but most of my inspiration comes from my mother and God. God is really just the secret to everything. One prayer can really change the life of a million people.

John: For listeners out there. I did not know we were going to be speaking about some of the topics you brought up today, but I do want to offer this up the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline is always available 7/24 for Anyone who is feeling desperate who is feeling suicidal you could please call 18002738255, is Kaila said there is another side you can get through it others have gone through it. Unfortunately, her mother succumbed in a tragic way, but her mission is to help other people to get through all of the burdens that are under and their Journeys. When they are marginalized or pushed aside needlessly and so today’s episode was so important Kaila and for our listeners again one more time to find you. They could go to www.madamemethven.com MADAME Methven METHVEN .com or on Instagram.

Kaila: All right, you said better right at Madame Methven.

John: At Madame Methven and also for our listeners out there. This has been an important episode and I have taped thousands.

Kaila: As well, 1833 Madame M.

John: I love it, and for and this has been an episode with Kaila Methven. She is the CEO of Madame Methven and Kaila you have not only made a huge impression on me but you are making a daily impact on the world. You are making the world a better place, and I am so grateful and thankful for the generosity of your time today to be on the Impact podcast. Thank you again, and you are always welcome back here.

Kaila: Thank you so much, sweetheart. Let us talk again when I am president in 2030.

John: Done.

Kaila: Thank you so much for today.